Safety Glance / Lifesaver?

I'm slightly concerned that this thread may deter anyone considering seeking some advanced training from actually doing so. As usual, those of you who are professional trainers cannot resist sniping at other trainers or training styles (mainly IAM it seems)

I agree that there are some trainers/observers in both IAM and Rospa who are inflexible and set in their ways - older ones I'd suggest - but surely you all recognise and agree that the main aim of both organisations is to produce a 'thinking rider' who constantly assesses the situation and hazards around him/her and responds appropriately - not by deploying some techniques such as a shoulder check, learnt by rote and applied in every situation.

The end product should be someone who can ride progressively, well and above all, safely

I suspect this is aimed at me :D

Look, I am a big fan of the riding clubs and organisations, they put me on the right track thirty years ago and pretty much started my whole love affair with bikes. And yes, I would implore anybody to join a local club and get stuck in.

My frustration is that actually i see more ride by rote as you described it, than i do thinking riders, and I'm constantly having a battle with them to ditch the 'dot to dot' and 'paint by numbers' style. There does seem to be a hazard / tick box style sometimes and in many of my training days, it's that system of dot to dot that I try and iron out.

So i certainly don't have a beef with them, i care .. :D and that's why i'm passionate about good riding and trying to do it well.

:thumb
 
Giles, I understand that you want riders to think for themselves, but do you not start with THE SYSTEM then once they have the idea then make them think out of the box. I did the Skill for life and was disallusioned with my tutors but passed, then a few years later RoSPA and felt my second tutor was teaching me to think for myself. The difference being being lifesavers required when appropriate. One other point was that when I took the second RoSPA I was challenged as to why I did a lifesaver when I was leaving a reduced speed limit, after a discussion I had to agree it was a habit.
 
.... but do you not start with THE SYSTEM then once they have the idea then make them think out of the box....

Yes absolutely, how do you teach grey areas without it becoming confusing from day one.

i don't ski and never have been. if I were to go, I'd want black and white instruction from my ski instructor. 'When you ride across a cambered surface like this ... weight this leg' 'when you want to turn right ... bend this knee' ... or whatever you should do !

What I don't want to hear is 'Well you could do this or you could do that - it depends .. what do you think?' "I don't know I'm new at all this - you tell me !!'

So Yep, teaching flexibility, grey areas, when to and when not to is a constant battle of 'will this help them or actually be more confusing'.


One of the reasons that coaching, in my eyes, is successful, is that you can ride and ride, share ideas, go back over the ride and de-brief it. What the coach really wants is the student to start thinking the right process and the right decisions. And on one hazard, roundabout, junction set of bends ... whatever ... that thought process and 'the right thing to do here' might be completely different to another similar set of circumstances. And it's getting them to see why in the first circumstances we did X, but in the next similar circumstance the right thing to do was Y.

That as you say, is difficult to teach from day one, and you may well be better teaching black and white to start, and then undoing stuff. :thumb2
 
I suspect this is aimed at me :D

Look, I am a big fan of the riding clubs and organisations, they put me on the right track thirty years ago and pretty much started my whole love affair with bikes. And yes, I would implore anybody to join a local club and get stuck in.

My frustration is that actually i see more ride by rote as you described it, than i do thinking riders, and I'm constantly having a battle with them to ditch the 'dot to dot' and 'paint by numbers' style. There does seem to be a hazard / tick box style sometimes and in many of my training days, it's that system of dot to dot that I try and iron out.

So i certainly don't have a beef with them, i care .. :D and that's why i'm passionate about good riding and trying to do it well.

:thumb

Fair point!
 
Advanced riding of any kind, involves one important thing. Thinking

Why am I in this road position ???

I've taught monkeys to pass the dsa test, and sadly same for IAM too.

Where is biggest hazard to me, how do I deal with it safely ? That is ultimately what counts, not how many lifesavers I got in.

Up here in gods country, if you straightline during IAM test you'll be failed, same with off siding; as Tulliallan doesn't do it/aporove !

Having had many dsa instructor's both cars and bikes, in general, they are arrogant twats who do not think they have anything to learn/ everything they are shown is WRONG. Most only do it so they can stick the relevant sticker up and charge more.

Then there is the minority who want to improve their knowledge and skills, they make the hassle of the other ones worthwhile.

There are good and bad in all schools of training, BUT any training that might keep you alive is worth it.

Advanced riding, paying for the accident you didn't have !
 
Advanced riding of any kind, involves one important thing. Thinking

Why am I in this road position ???

I've taught monkeys to pass the dsa test, and sadly same for IAM too.

Where is biggest hazard to me, how do I deal with it safely ? That is ultimately what counts, not how many lifesavers I got in.

Up here in gods country, if you straightline during IAM test you'll be failed, same with off siding; as Tulliallan doesn't do it/aporove !

Having had many dsa instructor's both cars and bikes, in general, they are arrogant twats who do not think they have anything to learn/ everything they are shown is WRONG. Most only do it so they can stick the relevant sticker up and charge more.

Then there is the minority who want to improve their knowledge and skills, they make the hassle of the other ones worthwhile.

There are good and bad in all schools of training, BUT any training that might keep you alive is worth it.

Advanced riding, paying for the accident you didn't have !

Im not certain where you are but i can tell you its perfectly acceptable indeed its encouraged by our local examiner to straight line r/bouts provided its safe to do so. Offsiding ?? Thats a no no but thats down to the culture of the police way of doing it in Scotland


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I totally agree, my view is; if it is safe, then what's the problem ??

Do i explain straight lining and off siding, depends on the associate. Some it is a step too much, bit like countersteering some get it others don't.

Thats why it is about the individual and not learning by rote.

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Thank you. I agree, and have used this method a fair bit especially on mountain bends!
It's similar to the "in wide out neat" faster cornering approach but for better visibility reasons.
It works for me!
 
You go out, WHEN you have the vision; not IF you have the vision.

Sadly, Police Scotland won't do it, most examiner's were trained at Tulliallan; it is a fail.

My simplistic view, safe = good.

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You go out, WHEN you have the vision; not IF you have the vision.

Sadly, Police Scotland won't do it, most examiner's were trained at Tulliallan; it is a fail.

My simplistic view, safe = good.

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Yes and never compromise safety for view
 
NB ....

For the likes of lord snooty and Mellors who DSA instruct (I did it for seven years before joining the fuzz) .... it's a completely different ball game! If I took a DSA test and rode as i do, I'd probably fail for positioning and no life savers ... :D

So would I :D
 
This is a very good discussion, and I am glad to say it has remained an exchange of views and ideas and not degenerated into a slanging match as so many do. Even though I have been instructing for 8 years now I have learnt something from the contributions to this thread.
 
This is a very good discussion, and I am glad to say it has remained an exchange of views and ideas and not degenerated into a slanging match as so many do. Even though I have been instructing for 8 years now I have learnt something from the contributions to this thread.

As have I and as I've never done any advanced course in my life you can always learn!
 
This is a very good discussion, and I am glad to say it has remained an exchange of views and ideas and not degenerated into a slanging match as so many do. Even though I have been instructing for 8 years now I have learnt something from the contributions to this thread.

I agree Mike i too like a fair exchange of views and I'm glad to find that most are in line with my own


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Offsiding in Scotland

I was recently talking to an IAM examiner with much experience in Scotland and he confirmed that Scottish Police do not allow off-siding and consequently any IAM candidates would fail if they were to do it.

I asked why the police take that view, as it is not, per se, against any law (AFAIK) and his view is that is probably something taught at the Scottish Police College.

I accept that off-siding may in some circumstances be considered to be 'without due care' but would ask why/how can the Police justify a blanket ban on an activity which at times can be supported on the grounds of enhancing safety?
 
I was recently talking to an IAM examiner with much experience in Scotland and he confirmed that Scottish Police do not allow off-siding and consequently any IAM candidates would fail if they were to do it.

I asked why the police take that view, as it is not, per se, against any law (AFAIK) and his view is that is probably something taught at the Scottish Police College.

I accept that off-siding may in some circumstances be considered to be 'without due care' but would ask why/how can the Police justify a blanket ban on an activity which at times can be supported on the grounds of enhancing safety?


Different views, different areas, different heads of department ......

Ultimately one or two people in charge of driver training in any particular area will write the SOP's and the policy stuff, and if they decide X, then that's what they go with.

Again, it's back to that grey area stuff versus black and white. I have seem some of my own colleagues sailing into left handers with their panniers near enough in the offside hedge. That's fine in the correct circumstances, and there are occasions when I'll do that too. But at other times I sit behind them, and it's just the wrong time to do it, and I'm squirming and thinking 'You are fucking bonkers'!
It's also (when it's done wrong) completely unfair on Mrs Miggins coming the other way, whose first view of the oncoming motorcyclist is straight at her in her lane. :eek:
The biker might know what he's doing and have it all under control, but she doesn't necessarily know that!!


So the whole thing is very grey, and it's because of that that I guess some forces bin it altogether.
 
I'm slightly concerned that this thread may deter anyone considering seeking some advanced training from actually doing so. As usual, those of you who are professional trainers cannot resist sniping at other trainers or training styles (mainly IAM it seems)

The end product should be someone who can ride progressively, well and above all, safely

Well if wasn't Giles then it must have been me, as we are the only two who used the unspeakable how dare you words of ROSPA!!!!!!!!!!!!! IAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To be clear fella I have been a member of both and still a member of one, not a snipe but a real observation relating to the varying standards / foibles expected by individual examiners.

I would encourage anybody to take some further coaching, (except the riding gods on here obviously :p) and I wouldn't give a fluff which organisation they went with. :beerjug:
 
Different views, different areas, different heads of department ......

Ultimately one or two people in charge of driver training in any particular area will write the SOP's and the policy stuff, and if they decide X, then that's what they go with.

Again, it's back to that grey area stuff versus black and white. I have seem some of my own colleagues sailing into left handers with their panniers near enough in the offside hedge. That's fine in the correct circumstances, and there are occasions when I'll do that too. But at other times I sit behind them, and it's just the wrong time to do it, and I'm squirming and thinking 'You are fucking bonkers'!
It's also (when it's done wrong) completely unfair on Mrs Miggins coming the other way, whose first view of the oncoming motorcyclist is straight at her in her lane. :eek:
The biker might know what he's doing and have it all under control, but she doesn't necessarily know that!!


So the whole thing is very grey, and it's because of that that I guess some forces bin it altogether.

It comes down ( yet again) to riding your own ride and thinking for yourself in planning etc.

Long straight with left hander at the end nothing coming opposite way on the straight, nice day, decent cross view etc moving along at good pace get over to the right as far as one wishes to open the view up settle the bike and stick it in as per the view you have which should take into account Mrs Miggins

Stuff coming the other way only go out as far right as is safe and open the view as far as possible rely more on the cross view
 


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