AF-XIED for R1200 LC

Smogbob said:

You just cannot help yourself, you are a sick man, take your meds, this is an AF-XIED thread why do you need to keep bashing on about HT, you keep waking up the HT debate, you really are not doing your friend any favours.

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spoonz said:

There is a difference. Af-xied hide nothing and will tell u anything related to the product and Roger and knut etc has shown physical evidence of its interaction with the ecu. Other than your arse or the HT dyno which has no load cell anyway, what evidence have you shown that your afr is any different from stock ?

That’s why people are cynical. Show your perfect afr and People May take it as more than hearsay. Maybe HT has pics of u with your trousers down I dunno but some very odd behaviour from some people on here. More than just happy customers I think.

Sorry for the interruption to your thread smogbob,,

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Tractors are go said:

Nothing wrong with being cynical, nor of questioning either, critical for the sake of it however....

I have always found Rogers comments and explanations helpful towards a better understanding of how AF works.

There are lots of different ways to "improve" an engine, and probably more ways to fudge it too.

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spoonz said:

I totally agree which I why I found it odd that questioning was shut down as it has been in the past.

The battle is being fought elsewhere now and I’m pretty sure that will reach a resolution of some kind. it would be a shame to fight it here as well which is why I dislike the obvious trolling so much.

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Tractors are go said:

1) He is no more my friend than you are of your supplier of your AF, I am a customer nothing more.

2) You are the one who has criticised previous about HT, where I have ever disputed that AF works ?

3) It is unfortunate that, when asked a polite question resort to what exactly ???

I found Rogers hypothesis that if the catalyst was running cooler, could this cause less heat transfer a considered response, and one that could bear closer examination, do you still have a cat fitted for example, what about the end can.

Now the less helpful comment; I spent most of last night/this morning dealing with a family who's 22 year old daughter tried to kill herself by a drugs overdose, as she was failing at university and did not know how to tell them she was, in her eyes, a failure.

I could respond to your comments, about meds, but you really aren't worth it.

As I have already said, I am glad that you are happy with the improvements to your bike and hope that they continue.

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Smogbob said:

Sad but what does that have to do with this thread, you seem to have plenty of time to troll this thread, even though you say you spent all night helping a lost soul.................

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Tractors are go said:

It is unfortunate that your personality precludes an ability to reflect.



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Roger 04 RT said:

Vibes should go down at a richer mixture, so not sure how the vibes would be related to the afx, but make sure you have the AF-XIEDs on the same setting.

Another thought, the adaptive values may be updating at a different rate side to side, leading to a left/right imbalance. I’ve never heard of that happening ... but maybe?

The more steady speed, various gears you ride, the faster the adaptive values for fueling develop.

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TT: Depends on the model of bike. On BMW or any Bosch you can change the target lambda map and other functions of it. Some of us have map description files and funktionsrahmen manuals direct from the manufacturer.

Other models. Just switch the sensors off and recalibrate appropriate table's

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TT: On the BMW personally i disable the sensor. Or disable the zone its active in. And calibrate mass flow and cylinder trim's. With the Bosch ecu there are many ways to skin a cat . Its actually possible to calibrate the entire fuel injection on target lambda. Even if its in an area where the sensor isn't actually active. The car guys do it this way. They use a diagnostic tool to look at the ecus self adaption. Then change the map cells so that the diag tool reads zero compensation for every cell. The theory is if the ecu only needs one or two percent self adaption then its perfectly calibrated.

One of us does a lot of new BMWs. He would be best to respond. Although my findings on a S1000RR. Even though the maps are a crappy 8 bit set up. Its a very stable and a powerful look up table.

Not only is there target lambda. There is additional air from the fresh air injection compensation and a hundred or so other tables related to lambda. On the old bikes you may be able to trick the system as Nicky explained. The new Bosch ecus. No chance of tricking anything if the sensor is active.

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TT: It's an 8 hour job. ...

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TT: [there are] About 400 functions for lambda adaption. Picture 2 below

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TT: [see the] Basic lambda target. Picture 1 below

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TT: [what these parameters look like] In raw [ECU] data. Picture 3 below

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Roger 04 RT said:

I’ve been curious whether the latest bikes could have their ECUs reflashed such that the Closed Loop area (normally held to lambda=1, which is 14.7:1 for gasoline) is richened AND maintain the Closed Loop functioning of the ECU. That would be a way to compare the AF-XIED with another possible alternative.

To that end I asked some questions of Tree Top Tuning. I was also curious about how candid they would be. As I read their answers, it is possible (on some bikes) to maintain Closed Loop and richen the Closed Loop area. The short version is that it depends on the bike and ECU. It’s about an eight hour job, depending on what needs to be changed and Dyno-verified. I found TT’s answers to be clear, candid and sensible. TT also answered the question in another place of how they override the ECU lockup.

Below is the dialog and some photos (which show just how versatile and complex the ECU tables are):

Question: On bmw bikes, the Closed Loop area is very broad 70-80% of the map. If the o2 sensors remain connected, how can any fuel be added in that area?



Question: Thank you for the reply. Out of curiosity, How far off lambda=1 can you move the lambda table? L=0.96 or more? (Their answer doesn’t actually give a number but is interesting.)





Question: That’s a good answer. ...

I’m not surprised that’s an eight hour job, in fact I’m surprised you can do all that in as little as eight hours.

It’s been my experience, with O2 sensors active, that the BMW bikes stick religiously to lambda=1. In fact on the R1200 there’s some really good software inside the ECU that will help keep both left and right cylinders’ fueling aligned even if one sensor goes out.

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Roger 04 RT said:

I’ve been curious whether the latest bikes could have their ECUs reflashed such that the Closed Loop area (normally held to lambda=1, which is 14.7:1 for gasoline) is richened AND maintain the Closed Loop functioning of the ECU. That would be a way to compare the AF-XIED with another possible alternative.

To that end I asked some questions of Tree Top Tuning. I was also curious about how candid they would be. As I read their answers, it is possible (on some bikes) to maintain Closed Loop and richen the Closed Loop area. The short version is that it depends on the bike and ECU. It’s about an eight hour job, depending on what needs to be changed and Dyno-verified. I found TT’s answers to be clear, candid and sensible. TT also answered the question in another place of how they override the ECU lockup.

Below is the dialog and some photos (which show just how versatile and complex the ECU tables are):

Question: On bmw bikes, the Closed Loop area is very broad 70-80% of the map. If the o2 sensors remain connected, how can any fuel be added in that area?



Question: Thank you for the reply. Out of curiosity, How far off lambda=1 can you move the lambda table? L=0.96 or more? (Their answer doesn’t actually give a number but is interesting.)





Question: That’s a good answer. ...

I’m not surprised that’s an eight hour job, in fact I’m surprised you can do all that in as little as eight hours.

It’s been my experience, with O2 sensors active, that the BMW bikes stick religiously to lambda=1. In fact on the R1200 there’s some really good software inside the ECU that will help keep both left and right cylinders’ fueling aligned even if one sensor goes out.

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Smogbob said:

After my MOT, or TUV what they call it here, on Thursday, the only info on the sheet that may be of help or not is below, AF-XIEDS still at factory set number 7 and not removed for MOT.

The Co content is 0.2% at 2200 1/min

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Roger 04 RT said:

That’s an interesting result. If you scroll down the page and look at this chart: https://www.mgexp.com/article/co-afr.html

You’ll see that 0.2% CO (carbon monoxide) translates to an AFR (air to fuel ratio) of 14.54:1, only a little richer than stock.

On setting 7 in the AF-XIEDs, your actual AFR is somewhere between 13.8 and 14.0:1, which produces 2.0 to 1.5% CO.

The reason that MOT is reading a much leaner result than actual is that they measure your bike’s CO after the catalytic converter to see that your emissions system is working. (And as MOT measured, even with your richer mixture on setting 7, your cat is still cleaning up the exhaust.)

This is the same place that a Dyno tuner measures AFR when they want to take a shortcut or convince you your bike is running lean. The TT guys have said on their site that to properly tune a bike they drill small holes in the header into which they insert their Wideband probes.

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Smogbob said:

Thought I would give it a few days of riding the bike up and down the mountains to see if I felt any difference in that area, the tractor effect I call it in my language, well to my surprise I feel that the bike can actually stay in a higher gear, rather than have to gear down to pull the bike up fairly steep hills, and does not feel like it will choke itself to death, and scream for me to shift down a gear, so there certainly is a difference in the fuelling, and that is about the best I can say at the moment.

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