Dropped helmet = new helmet?

spoonz said:
Ive had it happen and provided the foam cell looked like it hasn’t compressed I’ve worn it. With no weight in the helmet I doubt it would compromise it but I haven’t tested the theory.

Not sure there is a definitive answer and I suspect the manufacturer would err on the side of caution if asked.
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How could you tell? Damage to the EPS foam would surely occur on the face adjacent to the inner face of the outer shell? Where you can't see it...


younger06 said:
Is there any bad marks on it?? (is the outer shell compromised)
Did the GoPro take the brunt of the impact?

Every one is going to have a strong opinion on this.......I would need to see it to decide if "I" would wear it or not.
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How would Joe Public tell? A tiny scratch on the face of the outer shell may be just a scratch. But serious damage may be concealed within...

Morety said:
I once witnessed someone smacking an old helmet with a sledgehammer to see how compromised it might have been after numerous bashes and scrapes from knocks and drops etc. I was surprised at just how many whacks it took to make any real impression on the integrity of the lid. Lid sellers who advise replacing the lid after a drop...well, they would say that wouldn't they? A manufacturer once advised (after I'd dropped my lid) not to worry as the real compromise to safety is owners who ride regularly, and do things like keep their sweaty gloves inside their helmets when not in use, need to change lids every 2 to 3 years because it's partially the effects on the padding which can harden with age and I guess biological attack, that compromise the energy absorption of the impact protection. This can lead to brain injuries even if the outer isn't compromised. As long as there's no obvious cracks or delamination of the shell (unlikely from a drop) I'd crack on unless you want to use it as an excuse to buy a nice shiny new model.

The resin bonding process of modern lids means that you're rarely, if ever likely to witness delamination that could sometimes occur with much older GRP lids.

I have dropped mine several times and despite one or two minor scratches, still wear it. I change it once every 5 to 6 years whatever the apparent condition looks like just for peace of mind on the inner shell effectiveness. If I wore it daily, I'd be changing it every 2 to 3 years. You pays your money and makes your choice but a drop like that is very unlikely to do any real damage to the lid's integrity.
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How were you able to tell?


Boxed-in said:
It training we always said, the price of your helmet indicates the value you put on your head.

:nenau
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The 1970's Bell helmets advertisement? There are many cheap modern helmets that score higher on SHARP than helmets four times the price - MT Revenge vs Arai Astro... :eek:

Price is not always an indicator of quality (nor protection - check out Dexter Ford's findings in his 2005 article in Motorcyclist magazine on helmet protection...). I wonder what Thorsten Veblen might think browsing threads on UKGSer... particularly the ones where "reassuringly expensive" pops up...


JJH said:
Ride magazine did a thing on this a few years ago. Once there is no damage on the outer shell and the inner hasn’t been compressed by a head during the impact the helmet should be ok. The inner once compressed doesn’t expand again so would not be able to absorb the shock of impact again. If there is no head in it the inner cannot be damaged in this way. JJH
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Expert's deduction or journalist's opinion?


Motocentral said:
Please, unless you fully know what you're advising someone when it comes to safety it's best not to advise at all.You're literally putting someones life into your own hands at that point. The helmet shell is not the bit that would make your helmet damaged - it's the interior that takes the impact, the bit you cannot see. If the shell is cracked it's 100% scrapped, but there's many helmets which are totalled inside and look absolutely brand new inside and out.
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Perhaps the best advice on the thread...


Chalky723 said:
This!

If there's nothing to compress both sides, how does the polyystyrene inner get damaged?

As an aside, have a look at most spills - the head is pretty much the last thing to hit the ground in most, if it's the first, it's the neck that'll go before the skull.....

D
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Is there an assumption in this thinking that the EPS foam gets damaged between the sandwich of helmet shell and wearer's head? I'd have thought that the helmet's own weight would be enough in a 4-5ft drop to flex the shell and deform the EPS?


Timolgra said:
Because the shell deforms absorbing some energy before contacting and compressing the polystyrene, the shell returns to it's original shape leaving an unseen and unknown compression.
The polystyrene doesn't need to have a mass on the inside to allow that compression on the outside because the helmet has stopped on impact.:blast

You're overthinking Newton's law :D
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That's the reason OP buys a new helmet.


Motocentral said:
That's very true, Arai being a very humble Japanese run company definitely want to make money, but for now they still refuse to make a flip front or a helmet with an internal sun visor - they could do this obviously but they're reducing safety which they don't want to do, fair play! Only company so far to make a helmet with internal sun visor which has the same protection is Shoei, they raise the front of the shell slightly, keep the same amount of protection inside as per normal =)

Flip front helmets are still opening on impact, I think there's extremely few on the Sharp testing for example which don't have a 100% pass rate, and even those that do have a 100% pass rate on the chin bar not opening on impact, they only get tested a certain amount of times( not sure the answer to how many) but over 100 tests, I'm sure even those helmets won't have a 100% success rate!
Click to expand...

Is it 7 tests in SHARP? I'd probably be replacing my helmet before my 100th crash regardless...


OP - get a new helmet. :thumb2
 
PhaedrusMC said:
How could you tell? Damage to the EPS foam would surely occur on the face adjacent to the inner face of the outer shell? Where you can't see it...




How would Joe Public tell? A tiny scratch on the face of the outer shell may be just a scratch. But serious damage may be concealed within...



How were you able to tell?




The 1970's Bell helmets advertisement? There are many cheap modern helmets that score higher on SHARP than helmets four times the price - MT Revenge vs Arai Astro... :eek:

Price is not always an indicator of quality (nor protection - check out Dexter Ford's findings in his 2005 article in Motorcyclist magazine on helmet protection...). I wonder what Thorsten Veblen might think browsing threads on UKGSer... particularly the ones where "reassuringly expensive" pops up...




Expert's deduction or journalist's opinion?




Perhaps the best advice on the thread...




Is there an assumption in this thinking that the EPS foam gets damaged between the sandwich of helmet shell and wearer's head? I'd have thought that the helmet's own weight would be enough in a 4-5ft drop to flex the shell and deform the EPS?




That's the reason OP buys a new helmet.




Is it 7 tests in SHARP? I'd probably be replacing my helmet before my 100th crash regardless...


OP - get a new helmet. :thumb2
Click to expand...
The helmets got returned to manufacturer after RiDe tests, for their comments.

More damage is caused by shoving dirty gloves inside your helmet or putting it on top of your mirror.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Boxed-in said:
Do it often enough and you will compress a small knot inside the top of the helmet.
Click to expand...


A slip knot in this case :D

In response to the original question, if you are what so ever worried by the impact damage get yourself a new helmet and bin the old one.:rob
 
Andi_archer said:
A slip knot in this case :D

In response to the original question, if you are what so ever worried by the impact damage get yourself a new helmet and bin the old one.:rob
Click to expand...

Here here. If your not happy just bin it. Like tyers some people get the last 200 yards out of them. Some change before they square off. As I remember the ride test was conducted with the help of some helmet companies. Not just journalistic supposition. JJH
 
Is it 7 tests in SHARP? I'd probably be replacing my helmet before my 100th crash regardless...


I believe they buy 7 brand new helmets, so they're all tested out the box from brand new not 7 times. I'm not a huge huge fan of the Sharp system. Whilst it's the most reliable thing we have, it also has some flaws. The helmets are all tested in the same test conditions which is great, but I've genuinly seen some of the 5 star helmets on their list crack like an egg shell being dropped from a meter or so, no idea how they passed, but Sharp buy from retailers like ourselves, not the manufacturers so they aren't able to get helmets which have been doctored to pass a test in a certain way. They could change the Sharp Testing by dropping the helmets at a different angle or from a bigger height etc and it would change the outcome of the results quite a lot I'd imagine. Whilst I do appreciate their information is very reliable, don't use it for absolute gospel :)

I must say though PhaedrusMC, I do agree with all your above comments! Someone with knowledge and sense :)
 
Motocentral said:
Is it 7 tests in SHARP? I'd probably be replacing my helmet before my 100th crash regardless...


I believe they buy 7 brand new helmets, so they're all tested out the box from brand new not 7 times. I'm not a huge huge fan of the Sharp system. Whilst it's the most reliable thing we have, it also has some flaws. The helmets are all tested in the same test conditions which is great, but I've genuinly seen some of the 5 star helmets on their list crack like an egg shell being dropped from a meter or so, no idea how they passed, but Sharp buy from retailers like ourselves, not the manufacturers so they aren't able to get helmets which have been doctored to pass a test in a certain way. They could change the Sharp Testing by dropping the helmets at a different angle or from a bigger height etc and it would change the outcome of the results quite a lot I'd imagine. Whilst I do appreciate their information is very reliable, don't use it for absolute gospel :)

I must say though PhaedrusMC, I do agree with all your above comments! Someone with knowledge and sense :)
Click to expand...

Hi Motocentral

SHARP said that they refuse to test and rate open face helmets because of the lack of protection to the lower face. Where do you stand on selling such helmets? Scooter riders for town use only?

I love the idea of an open-face helmet, but am struggling with the safety angle.

John
 
Motocentral said:
I have a duty of care - my job puts me in a position where I have to look out for the wellbeing of someone. I have many people come into our shop and try a helmet on that's too big for them, dangerous to go out on the road And we will absolutely refuse to sell them that helmet. They get quite disappointed, but we won't let someone leave our shop with something which we feel is ill fitting. I'd rather lose a sale than doing so. At the end of the day if said person walks out of our building with a helmet which is not safe for them, and they have a fatal accident, that death is on MY hands personally as I knew if wasn't going to be good for them.

It's a similar situation here, if I know a helmet isn't right for someone due to the life it's had I have to inform them of that, if I don't and they go out and die due to this, then again that's on me personally. I don't want that. Now whether you believe I'm a "salesman" or whether you want to believe me as a genuine person informing people about safety that's your choice. All I ask is that someone without knowledge of what a motorcycle helmet does and doesn't do in the event of an accident / imppact doens't answer a question they're not educated on. Just because a persons head is not inside the helmet once it took an impact that doesn't mean the interior is not damaged, please don't advise someone that this is the case - I'm a million percent sure this is untrue. I'll give you the easiest extreme example, if you hit a helmet with a baseball bat with no head inside is the interior going to be damaged... yes of course it is, so please think about what you're advising when it comes to safety especially. This is something I in my job role take extremely seriously and don't want people advising others incorrectly.
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How is the interior going to be damaged if you hit the outside?

Maybe just a miniscule smidgen if the outer shell is deflected,you could cause more damage the lining shell by sticking a fingernail into the polystyrene. Its the polystyrene lining that absorbs and dissipates the impact, but needs to be in the middle of the sandwich to work. (shell, lining, head).
 
beemerboy9 said:
Hi Motocentral

SHARP said that they refuse to test and rate open face helmets because of the lack of protection to the lower face. Where do you stand on selling such helmets? Scooter riders for town use only?

I love the idea of an open-face helmet, but am struggling with the safety angle.

John
Click to expand...
There a good case to be made that open-face helmets are safer than full-face.

The most common head injury in a motorcycle accident is due to rotation not deceleration. Full face, and particularly flip-front helmets provide more leverage in a glancing blow and more angular momentum due to their larger size and weight. There's also the question of peripheral vision and mobility to be considered.

It's tempting to think that a big heavy helmet offers the most protection, but it isn't necessarily so. Interesting article in Bike magazine a couple of years ago.

Personally, I wear the smallest lightest helmet I can get.
 
beemerboy9 said:
Hi Motocentral

SHARP said that they refuse to test and rate open face helmets because of the lack of protection to the lower face. Where do you stand on selling such helmets? Scooter riders for town use only?

I love the idea of an open-face helmet, but am struggling with the safety angle.

John
Click to expand...

Look up something called an Icon Statistic helmet, they made a helmet and sectioned it into certain areas of where you're expected to take impact on a helmet the chin ads up to 30% of incidents. I personally wouldn't ever wear an open face helmet. Saying that I once went to spain and rented out a scooter for the day to go to some waterfalls, it felt amazing being so open and visible but I felt really vulnerable too. I know motorcyling is partly down to image as well, so I accept people want to wear them. We sell them due to demand, if we didn't sell them others would and it'd be business we'd lose out on. I'd never sell one to someone wanting to ride a sportsbike of course, as they're much more designed for lower speeds, I see the argument for and against, but personally I'm not a fan of open face.

On a side note, you'll also note on the Icon Statistic helmet (google image it... it's no longer made) that the side of the helmet gets 0.8% of impact (due to your shoulders almost never allowing the helmet to be hit there) yet SHARP test that exact area of a helmet. Why? That's one of the other reasons I don't fully trust the SHARP system. Like I said it's the best we have but not perfect.
 
fink said:
How is the interior going to be damaged if you hit the outside?

Maybe just a miniscule smidgen if the outer shell is deflected,you could cause more damage the lining shell by sticking a fingernail into the polystyrene. Its the polystyrene lining that absorbs and dissipates the impact, but needs to be in the middle of the sandwich to work. (shell, lining, head).
Click to expand...

The interior lining (EPS) is damaged once an impact is taken to the outer.

I always give extreme examples to put it into perspective so scale this example down to the right proportion.

An Orange, poke the outer of it and the shell (skin) will stay the same, the interior will however turn to mush. Same applies with a helmet, the outer shell is designed to protect the interior from getting damaged, but forced through the outer shell is passed through to the inside - the shell isn't bullet proof and doesn't not cause damage as you may think it would.
 
Motocentral said:
The interior lining (EPS) is damaged once an impact is taken to the outer.

I always give extreme examples to put it into perspective so scale this example down to the right proportion.

An Orange, poke the outer of it and the shell (skin) will stay the same, the interior will however turn to mush. Same applies with a helmet, the outer shell is designed to protect the interior from getting damaged, but forced through the outer shell is passed through to the inside - the shell isn't bullet proof and doesn't not cause damage as you may think it would.
Click to expand...

A bad example - you've only got the outer (skin) and head (interior). Where's the equivalent of the inner protection?

But to use your example, if the orange is hollow, what would get damaged? The skin wouldn't bruise anywhere near as much, if at all & there's no interior to turn to mush.

D
 
We're using examples here, I'm trying to make everything scaled more extreme so it's easier to understand. Are you saying you don't believe a helmet is only suposed to take one impact here? Or are you saying you don't think a helmet would take any damage from being dropped from motorcycle seat height for example? The interior will 100% be affected, there's no doubt about that. The question is will it be impacted enough for this to need to be changed and the answer to that is no one knows - it's then your choice whether or not you'd like to risk wearing again. No one else should say "yes it's fine, just wear it" as they're 'potentially' putting someone elses life intot heir hands and that's simply not fair.
 
Motocentral said:
We're using examples here, I'm trying to make everything scaled more extreme so it's easier to understand. Are you saying you don't believe a helmet is only suposed to take one impact here? Or are you saying you don't think a helmet would take any damage from being dropped from motorcycle seat height for example? The interior will 100% be affected, there's no doubt about that. The question is will it be impacted enough for this to need to be changed and the answer to that is no one knows - it's then your choice whether or not you'd like to risk wearing again. No one else should say "yes it's fine, just wear it" as they're 'potentially' putting someone elses life intot heir hands and that's simply not fair.
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Actually, the tests in RiDe magazine (after examination by the manufacturer) showed that the liner was not damaged.



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Let’s go back to the original question. It seems that it was a GoPro mount that took the impact. The surface of a helmet is curved. So any impact with a flat surface (ground) would be focused on a very small area of the helmet. A GoPro mount is about a square inch give or take. The mount it’s self would have some give or flexibility. I would say that 1 having fallen as described I’d myself say it hasn’t suffered sufficient damage to warrant disposal. The fact that a GoPro mount has apparently absorbed and dissipated some of the forces generated I’d be doubly assured that the helmet is serviceable. One question. Have you ever said to someone that helmet is ok? Or is it bin it every time? JJH
 
JJH said:
Thank god someone else reads Ride. JJH
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The phrase is common misconceptions.

Yes, a helmet may be damaged not must be.

Most decent dealers and manufacturers offer either servicing or a check over.

The worst thing is shoving dirty, grubby, stained gloves inside your helmet, followed by placing it on your mirror.



Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
JJH said:
Let’s go back to the original question. It seems that it was a GoPro mount that took the impact. The surface of a helmet is curved. So any impact with a flat surface (ground) would be focused on a very small area of the helmet. A GoPro mount is about a square inch give or take. The mount it’s self would have some give or flexibility. I would say that 1 having fallen as described I’d myself say it hasn’t suffered sufficient damage to warrant disposal. The fact that a GoPro mount has apparently absorbed and dissipated some of the forces generated I’d be doubly assured that the helmet is serviceable. One question. Have you ever said to someone that helmet is ok? Or is it bin it every time? JJH
Click to expand...
Personally, I would never mount/affix anything to either a bicycle or motorcycle helmet.

As for impact transfer etc, unless someone actually holds real proper qualifications then it is all just supposition.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 
Tractors are go said:
Personally, I would never mount/affix anything to either a bicycle or motorcycle helmet.

As for impact transfer etc, unless someone actually holds real proper qualifications then it is all just supposition.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Agreed about the supposition. But common sense comes into play too. JJH
 
Have I ever said to someone their helmet will be OK after it's been dropped. On a professional level no of course not. I wouldn't risk someone elses life and neither should you. Have I dropped a helmet myself from a small height and carried on wearing it myself personally, then the answer is yes. As a professional with more knowledge about helmets than 99.9% on here, I can't even imagine to describe to you how wrong some peoples comments are. The fact that a go pro is on there makes it worse, not better. it puts all the impact focused into one small area into the helmet. I'm going to leave this thread here, as some people don't want to listen. It's always going to be on personal opinion ultimately of course. My advise from what I've built up knowledge of being in the motorcycle industry for 8 year is that yes a helmet "should" be changed if dropped, but I understand why people may not wish to do so, even from a personal perspective, I would not change the helmet sometimes. With this particular example however - I would.
 
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