EURO 5 on the doorstep

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max7 said:
You've raised a good point there knutk, as ever. Change is often perceived initially with distrust then eventually realised as being good, not just in the bike world but in the world at large!

However your post does miss one point - which I'm sure you're aware of but simply forgotten to mention - and that's the fact that much of the negativity towards euro 5 is not in relation to maintenance but in respect of tuning. Each iteration of euro emissions regs seems to make it more difficult to make meaningful mods to bikes. As you're only too aware, bike owners in general do like fettling with their iron steeds so, having ever tightening limitations placed on this aspect of bike ownership is not likely to go down well.

Your level of technical ability is way beyond that of many on this site, so perhaps for you the changes are not so daunting - but to me and possibly others, euro 5 seems almost to be the death nell of the aftermarket tuning industry.

Hopefully you're about to tell me that I'm wrong on all counts. :D;)
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I doubt this is the end of fettling, but they are certainly making it more difficult Max, to be able to fettle and tune, you better know what you are doing with the Euro 5,s and extra O2 sensors are put in the way 3 now on the 1250,s, AF-XIED are still working hard testing, good thing is they test for a good while before releasing to the market, hats off to Roger and nightrider and others for that, as for tuning, well all that invisible stuff just cannot happen, HEX code has to be changed in the map, and is totally visible, so you run the risk of BMW voiding the warranty, but if you keep the bike long enough, you have choices, hence my 2017 is a keeper. :beerjug:
 
Smogbob said:
Even better why dont you just go back to your beloved pub, and leave us to discuss what we want in the WC section.
Click to expand...

It is the "Technical" section... I'm sure the boss could create a 1200LC "opinion" section where you could all gather and cogitate until your hearts content without polluting the technical sections.
 
Steptoe said:
It is the "Technical" section... I'm sure the boss could create a 1200LC "opinion" section where you could all gather and cogitate until your hearts content without polluting the technical sections.
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Thought you only dealt with the old bangers bikes, did not realise you where up to Euro 5 already. :hippy
 
Steptoe said:
It is the "Technical" section... I'm sure the boss could create a 1200LC "opinion" section where you could all gather and cogitate until your hearts content without polluting the technical sections.
Click to expand...

And the snippet below taken from the fireworks thread yesterday...corrected for the sake of context:

Steptoe said:
It's a fecking forum for fecks sake.
Feck me the people of this country are turning into grade A turds moaning about every little fecking thing, a law against this, a law against that, ban everything.

Utter miserablist bastards.
Click to expand...
Move along please, no hypocrisy to see here. :D:D
 
max7 said:
You've raised a good point there knutk, as ever. Change is often perceived initially with distrust then eventually realised as being good, not just in the bike world but in the world at large!

However your post does miss one point - which I'm sure you're aware of but simply forgotten to mention - and that's the fact that much of the negativity towards euro 5 is not in relation to maintenance but in respect of tuning. Each iteration of euro emissions regs seems to make it more difficult to make meaningful mods to bikes. As you're only too aware, bike owners in general do like fettling with their iron steeds so, having ever tightening limitations placed on this aspect of bike ownership is not likely to go down well.

Your level of technical ability is way beyond that of many on this site, so perhaps for you the changes are not so daunting - but to me and possibly others, euro 5 seems almost to be the death nell of the aftermarket tuning industry.

Hopefully you're about to tell me that I'm wrong on all counts. :D;)
Click to expand...

Some valid points indeed. :)

But I think that when it comes to DIY tuning, E-5 engines will not make much difference compared to the E-4 and earlier engines. Indeed, the WideBand O2 sensor will pose a challenge to the likes of AF-XIED, since the NarrowBand O2 sensor produced it's own voltage, and could easily be simulated, while the WB O2 sensor relies on a sensor-controller inside the ECU, and intercepting the signal between ECU and O2 sensor implies much more than copying/modifying some voltage.
To the ECU tuners, the WB sensor makes it possible to provide a more accurate tuning than previously, and the likes of Power Commander may probably carry on as before, faced by the challenge of controlling the feedback from the #3 O2 sensor (after cat) , which is a NB sensor and thus fairly easy to manipulate.

But lets face it, the tinkering and truly DIY part of changing the fueling really disappeared with the carburetors. Ever since fuel injection was introduced, the DIY tuning consists of buying stuff that needs to be added to the bike, or getting someone to load software tweaks in order to change the OEM fueling.
The ECU tuning for the 1250 is still well and alive, I suggest a visit to the TreeTop site for more details.

That said, the introduction of the WB sensor has improved the running of the engines compared to earlier models, in spite of the anorectic fueling, thus I suspect that less of us will feel the need to improve the running of the engine, even if adding a bit more fuel to the engine still does the engine good.
 
I’ve seen a letter from Dynajet to a rider that states that they do not intend to support PCV on the R1250 because “it is closed loop across the whole fuel map.”
 
Delboy777 said:
Ohh well thats one avenue now blocked off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I think, in my very ‘umble opinion, that pre E5 bikes will attract a premium simply due to the fact that, to some degrees, it can be still fooled around with.

I haven’t even bothered to plug my 911 pro into my 1250 coz a) I’m wasting my time and b) well, the bike is kinda just about as good as it can be anyhoo.

I do have a spare refuelling kit tho....... I wonder how many times I can get the engine light on hahaha


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Mark Hooton said:
I think, in my very ‘umble opinion, that pre E5 bikes will attract a premium simply due to the fact that, to some degrees, it can be still fooled around with.

I haven’t even bothered to plug my 911 pro into my 1250 coz a) I’m wasting my time and b) well, the bike is kinda just about as good as it can be anyhoo.

I do have a spare refuelling kit tho....... I wonder how many times I can get the engine light on hahaha


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Made I larf that did Mark, there is certainly a few that will still believe the hype of I can cure your 1250, yet you have one and say freely it is great, wetheads now collectors items then. :D
 
There is this saying that goes: When one door get closed, another door opens.

It seems like the E-5 1250 runs in closed loop (i. fueling is controlled based on feedback from the O2 sensor) almost over the entire rpm range.
This will make it complicated to modify the fuel in the Powercommander way (hence their reluctance to adapt to the 1250), and oldfashioned maping that requires the engine to ignore the O2 sensor will throw a faultcode. That is ok for track bikes and racing, but not for streetbikes.

However, if I understand the info over at the Treetop site, there is an AFR map in the newer ECU's. This makes sense, since the engine has a powerdip in the 4 - 5K range in order to comply with the regulations. And, unless some complicated mechanical stuff is introduced (and it is not), this reduction in power must be performed by strangling the fuel and adjust the ignition timing in this range. If the AFR target is the very same over the entire range, the O2 sensor feedback would fight such strangling. Thus, a AFR map that may specify different AFR for various RPMs will be needed.

The brilliance in this is that by modifying the AFR map, the tuner may reprogram the engine to enrichment without any fuss.

It is however my guess that BMW does not widely publish the whereabouts of this map, so it requires skill and knowledge to modify the map. But even so, this opens a door for the capable tuners out there :beerjug:

And to some people tuning is a bit like good beer. No matter how good the beer tastes, you always strive to find something that tastes even better :beer:
 
knutk said:
There is this saying that goes: When one door get closed, another door opens.

It seems like the E-5 1250 runs in closed loop (i. fueling is controlled based on feedback from the O2 sensor) almost over the entire rpm range.
This will make it complicated to modify the fuel in the Powercommander way (hence their reluctance to adapt to the 1250), and oldfashioned maping that requires the engine to ignore the O2 sensor will throw a faultcode. That is ok for track bikes and racing, but not for streetbikes.

However, if I understand the info over at the Treetop site, there is an AFR map in the newer ECU's. This makes sense, since the engine has a powerdip in the 4 - 5K range in order to comply with the regulations. And, unless some complicated mechanical stuff is introduced (and it is not), this reduction in power must be performed by strangling the fuel and adjust the ignition timing in this range. If the AFR target is the very same over the entire range, the O2 sensor feedback would fight such strangling. Thus, a AFR map that may specify different AFR for various RPMs will be needed.

The brilliance in this is that by modifying the AFR map, the tuner may reprogram the engine to enrichment without any fuss.

It is however my guess that BMW does not widely publish the whereabouts of this map, so it requires skill and knowledge to modify the map. But even so, this opens a door for the capable tuners out there :beerjug:

And to some people tuning is a bit like good beer. No matter how good the beer tastes, you always strive to find something that tastes even better :beer:
Click to expand...

Well certainly looks like those who have a 1250 might need to drink some of Knutk,s beers, that make a lot of sense, it was like I was trying to say in my limited skills in tuning but not so limited in computers, but still the same an ECU is just a computer brain, unless you modify the map and know where to look for the HEX code and can also modify the fail-safes, well you are stuffed, and you can see it has been modified, simple, just wondering now if anything else will be added to stop tinkering on the bikes in 2020 with this Euro5 strangling.
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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