Brakes

dr nosh

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Yep. That old nutshell again :eek:

At the last MOT (by not the usual tester) the tester was considering failing my 80ST for 'variation of braking effort' for both front and rear brakes.

A bit of a discussion was then had with me asking the tester why was he trying to test the brakes of a 36 year old design to modern standards with modern equipment - rollers etc.

Yes we all want good brakes, but they are how they were designed.

Bit like applying 17th edition wiring regulations to a domestic property built in the '50s and expecting it to pass. Again we all want a safe house, but unless you upgrade it will not comply with modern regs.

So, the discussion was ended by me telling the tester to ride the bike. He came back agreeing that although the brakes were what they are, the instrument needles on the rolling road were hugely magnifying what could be actually felt.

So, got the pass.

But it got me thinking:

Carefully inspecting the front disc showed up lines or ridges on the surface. Thats reasonably easily sorted by replacing the disc and pads and re-filling the fluid with fresh DOT4.

But what about the rear, and this is the point of this long ramble.

Presumably there will be some ovality in the hub from spoke tension etc, etc.

Can anybody recommend a motor engineer that could turn out the steel brake liner 'round'. Would need a lathe with a throw, or removable gap bed to accomodate the 18" rim. This work must be done on classic/vintage cars with brake drums in the wheel hub.

There is a max dimension cast into the alloy of the hub and probably quoted in Haynes, Clymer etc.

Depending on the ovality and how much needs to be removed, ie the actual finished diameter, over sized linings could probably be fitted.

Anybody gone down this route?
 
I wouldn't bother. The front brake is for stopping. The rear brake is for slow speed control.
 
There is something on the hub itself which indicates the max size.

It is common practice with old Brit iron the skim the hub with rim on, so a vintage brake specialist might be able to help.


If the pedal is similar to the G/S pedal it is a bit short.

I have extended mine with about 3" with a P shaped bit of checker plate, gets my size 11's out from under the carb and gives a bit more leverage.
 
I have a guy over here in Dorset who does drum skimming for me.
 
Just find a new MOT tester who is a bit more pragmatic. My rear brake shoes have got to be 20 years old. I expect the glue has broken down by now, I don't feel in any way compromised.
 
depending on the distortion of the rear drum, it can normally be sorted by a good wheel builder by retentioning the spokes, this is a better way to sort it than machining on a lathe depending on the distortion.
 
My rear brake (GS) was rubbish.
Unless you feel a "pulsing" at the brake lever, I would suggest you re-profile the shoe linings.

I rubbed chalk on the linings, re-installed, spun the wheel and applied the brake.
Where the chalk was rubbed off, I filed the lining down. Repeat as necessary.


It takes a while to get the biggest contact patch, but eventually, The brake worked really well.
I could lock it doing 40mph.
 
My rear brake (GS) was rubbish.
Unless you feel a "pulsing" at the brake lever, I would suggest you re-profile the shoe linings.

I rubbed chalk on the linings, re-installed, spun the wheel and applied the brake.
Where the chalk was rubbed off, I filed the lining down. Repeat as necessary.


It takes a while to get the biggest contact patch, but eventually, The brake worked really well.
I could lock it doing 40mph.

Sounds like a good way to get the best from an inherently flawed design. I’ve never understood how a drum brake is supposed to provide good braking when the inner concentric circle (the brake shoes) is only expanded on one side which means it’s no longer concentric and the shoes will only be in contact with the drum over a very small contact area - unless the shoes are reprofiled as above.
 
Sounds like a good way to get the best from an inherently flawed design. I’ve never understood how a drum brake is supposed to provide good braking when the inner concentric circle (the brake shoes) is only expanded on one side which means it’s no longer concentric and the shoes will only be in contact with the drum over a very small contact area - unless the shoes are reprofiled as above.
It is the leading edge of the brake shoe which does most of the braking. Before disc brakes the best improvement was twin leading shoes.
 
Unless you can feel any pulsing or the effort required to scrub speed is disproportionate I suspect that there probably isn't a problem with your rear brake - it is what it is. Before you go down the route of skimming and machining etc I would simply inspect the rear brakes and drum (its simple enough to get to as im sure you know) and check condition. Light oil contamination is quite common. All being equal I would recommend a new set of shoes with a softer lining which will improve braking response- and save wearing out the impossible to source rear drum/hub.
 
If the shoes are free to float they will work much better, with more area in contact.

I discovered this on a bike with a pressed metal brake plate which was tack welded to a top hat spacer on the axle.

When the brake plate broke free at the axle the brake suddenly worked much better!

Luckily it happened during a panic stop when the additional braking was welcome!

Downside is that brake force is no longer lineal,as the brake tends to pull itself on, and it will lock easily.

Particularly if it gets wet!

At one time the suggestion was to elongate the semi circular pivot on the shoe into a flat bottomed U shape, but can't remember if it made much difference!
 
Well, to start wih I am going to go with 'fitting' the linings to the drum using chalk, the method described by Redboots.

I have a new pair of shoes in 'stock' so will get organised.
 
If you do get the hub machined it's worth having the linings machined to match.

Filing high spots off is worth a try as is chamfering the leading edge as it's this that has a servo effect, not enough chamfer can make the brake a bit fierce.
 
Unless you can feel any pulsing or the effort required to scrub speed is disproportionate I suspect that there probably isn't a problem with your rear brake - it is what it is. Before you go down the route of skimming and machining etc I would simply inspect the rear brakes and drum (its simple enough to get to as im sure you know) and check condition. Light oil contamination is quite common. All being equal I would recommend a new set of shoes with a softer lining which will improve braking response- and save wearing out the impossible to source rear drum/hub.

How or where do I find 'softer' linings?

The new shoes that I have here are Ferodo.

Are they hard or soft?
 
Some folks rave over Lucas TRV products, I don't but a new set of almost anything will probably be better than the old shoes.

Most of the Vintage/classic brake shops will be able to fit softer material to your existing shoes, and will turn the finished job to suit your drum as a matter of course as the new material is unlikely to be the same thickness as the old material.
 
I have used saftec many times for the classic bikes I work on. They know their stuff. Had problems with Villiers services when a pair of rare shoes "didn't arrive" with then until we got a bit heavy with them then they magically were "found".
 


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