Engine Failure at 42,000 miles

[Keba]

So, after starting a rant in the rant forum, I have some technical info regarding the engine failure (see post http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63813 if you want more info on the rant )

Sorry if this is long - I touch type and I do like using multiple words when explaining stuff! I try to add in grammar, paragraphs, punctuation and really bad spelling too.

I've had a very long conversation (2 hours 44 minutes on Friday evening damn those phones with call timers inbuilt I say!) with BMW UK regarding my engine blowing up, and following is the gist (in my laymans terms - I am very much _not_ a mechanic) as I understand it - going off notes that I wrote down while talking to BMW, so not a hazy memory issue, just a me being a non-mechanic one.

The engine on my BMW K1200RS decided to have bits exit stage right at around the 42,000 mile mark - this is while I was in a flow of traffic doing around 65 mph, not accellerating, not braking, just keeping at a fairly constant speed.

The technical bit is that 'big end #1', which is attached to the crank thingie at the front of the engine (i.e. a few inches in front of my legs) wore out and the 'cap' blew through the right-hand side of the engine casing when the big end stopped joining to the crank thingie, as is only expected given the bike was doing around 4.5k revs (going off memory there on what 65 mph is in revs - it might be slightly more).

'big end #2' is very worn - the theory is that it was less worn than 'big end #1' mainly due to it still being attached and not somewhere on the A34. Still, it is dangerously worn.

'big end #3' is not as worn as 'big end #2' - still attached.

'big end #4' is not as worn as 'big end #3' but is still 'worn' - still attached.

I believe big ends #3 and #4 are roughly around the same place as where my legs are, so if they blew its possible (unconfirmed if that is indeed the placement of them) that my leg could have been taken off during the exit stage right procedure that the engine undertook. If anybody knows for sure on that front, please do say.

It took quite a while to get me to understand the above - kudos to the BMW UK guy who was explaining it, as I really don't know how engines work, other than there is fuel, sparkplugs, and a whole lots of moving metal bits.

The guy from BMW explained how this usually happens. I was told basically that if a K1200 engine is laid on its side with the engine running, then there is a possiblity that air can get into the oil pump that lubricates (at very high pressure) the big end joints. These big end joints are done in series rather than parallel, so most of the air if taken up by the oil pump would have been blased at big end #1, with some going on to #2, #3 and finally very little hitting #4. Please remember I'm taking this on hearsay - i.e. I don't have a clue about this stuff, but am good at jotting down notes while on the phone!

So far so good - I was asked (since it was apparant on the left hand side of the bike) if the engine was on when I had my bike on its side. It is true that it was on its side causing some minor scratching, but the engine was not on at that point in time. On a side note, I do turn my bikes ignition on so that I have brakes (servo assisted) and wheel it out of the garage on to my driveway, but I don't turn the bike on till after I've put the bike on its sidestand and have gone back and closed the garage door. I've been led to believe that new engines do not need 'warming up' and that it is indeed bad for them to do so, so I wait till I'm on my bike ready to leave before I use the starter to turn my engine actually on.

This did come across as an attempt to lay blame on myself, and because I was focusing on the panel and the above situtation I was quite happy in the knowledge that I hadn't started the engine at that point during the above panel scratching incident.

It wasn't till the end of the conversation that I remembered (we were talking about other stuff) that I had actually come off the bike early in '04 due to a lot of snow and a very lazy council who didn't salt the roads near my house - add in a man hole cover that I never really payed any attention to before and whoosh, one bike on its side. 20 or so yards later is another man hole cover, so after getting the bike back up, whooosh, I went down and wiped out laying the bike on its other side as well. BMW Battersea did the insurance work, but at no time did they say anything about a potential intake of air into an oil pump. Nor was this mentioned at any of the 5 or 6 services after this that BMW Battersea undertook on my behalf.

Moral to that part of the story is this: don't ride in snow on roads that aren't salted.

The guy from BMW did say that we might have had a slightly different conversation based on the snow incident, and I assured him that we would have - and that the Judge who would no doubt be present would ask why BMW Battersea didn't inform me that this air intake issue was on the cards given BMW Battersea had done the insurance work. We agreed not to have a different conversation... They did have the information to hand if they had looked of course, but they hadn't looked it up, and it wasn't till the end of the conversation that I remembered.

Roll on a good 30k miles or so (probably more, but lets be conservative - I'd only had the bike 3 or 4 months at this point, so wouldn't have done much more than 10k miles), the engine blew up as the air blasting the big end joints caused rapid (well, 30k miles kind of rapidity) deteroitation and a near death experience.

I was asked (both by SPC on the day, and BMW during the conversation) if I'd ever had the oil pressure warning light come on. Apart from the initial diagnostics between when you turn the ignition on and using the starter, it has never been on. Well, OK - after the engine blew up, it went on then too. I wash the bike once every week (maybe two weeks if I'm lazy - never more than that though), and I do the sanity checks like check the tyres for nails, water in the radiator thingie under the seat, and indeed the oil level on the bike. I'm a sad muppet with no life in that respect. I also have the bike serviced at almost exactly every 6000 miles - 42,005 at the last service - just to prove the sad muppet syndrome I face. Its rare between 6000 mile services that I've had to top up the oil, but I have done so probably about half the time. I never fill it up above the top part of the oil window thingie, and I've never let it get below 1/4. The BMW guy did state that it was obvious that the bike had never had low oil, and had never been overfilled (something about blue tinges on some metal bit in the engine for one or both of those situations) and that they were happy that SPC had put oil back in the bike as part of the Service that they had done 40 odd miles before the engine blew up. I was satisified in that respect given the amount of oil on my leggings too

Another little sidetrack - I've only ever had 2 accidents in my entire driving and riding life which has spanned a good 15 or so years now. Both were within one week, and the first was when some idiot changed lanes into me - I ended up taking him to court as his insurance company (or the idiot himself) tried saying it was partly my fault - I won hands down as it was _very_ clear cut who was at fault and the Judge was very clear in his closing remarks on that point. The second accident was the snow mobile experiences near home a week or so later. I didn't come off my bike in the first instance, due to a) ABS (it was raining), and b) I was only doing around 30 mph. I don't think I would have come off in the second instance if the man hole covers hadn't been there due to a) I was doing under 10mph and b) ABS doesn't work too well on icy man hole covers.

Back to the current engine explosion - I was told by the BMW guy to focus on the fact that I didn't actually die, and not to dwell on the other possiblities - I can't actually stop that thought process, and thinking about if I had been going round a corner in the wet, accelerating and at higher revs - i.e. actually stressing the engine, or if the truck that managed to let me pass in front of him when I got off the road hadn't seen me, how injured or dead I'd really be. Not a pleasant thing to dwell on!

So the upshot of the above is this - BMW are replacing the engine, right hand panel, rear tyre, brake pads (even the front which got oil on them somehow), and other bits and pieces that go with that whole process. SPC are doing the labour at no cost. I'm paying a token amount in order to get a 2 year warranty on the engine, as if they do it under 'goodwill' then it has no warranty due to some legal stuffs.

BMW are adamant that they are not going to look at the 16,500 mile clutch wear out issue, even though they stated clutches usually last 30k upwards - I'm guessing the 30k is the boy racer types. They have also stressed that they are already being more than nice with regards to the good will gesture on the 42,000 mile engine explosion replacement and that as I didn't pay for the clutch replacement at 25k that in reality I'm paying for a clutch replacement at 42k. There is some logic there even if I don't agree with it. Personally I'm not happy, as I was already not a happy camper about that situtation _before_ the engine blew up, and I still have this nagging feeling that something else is seriously wrong - I'm guessing a whole new engine could rectify something else that was fundamentally wrong, but I really don't know.

I have missed out some bits and pieces from the long conversation with BMW, and I'll throw them in if needed, although none of them relate to the below as far as I can see:

So, to the Technical question and hence the reason I'm posting in this forum.

I'd like to hear from anybody who is actually qualified to tell me their thoughts on the above with relation to the K1200 ('03 edition) engine - please remember its not a GS and not a boxer engine, so if you don't actually know and are just guessing then please qualify statements in that regard. Specifically the 'air getting sucked into oil pump and starting off a detoriation of a big end causing an engine explosion' issue.

I'd also like it confirmed independantly that a clutch wear out issue is absolutly beyond a doubt _not_ related to a big end wearing out and engine exploding issue.

Over to you guys...

[Fanum]

Don't by any chance have (or have access to) any of the oil that was in the engine when it let go do you??

Analysis could show if the oil had a lot of air mixing in it.

[Steptoe]

The drastic end to your engine isn't likely to be caused by something that happened thousands of miles ago -

The K1200 engine used to have oilpump problems - which caused BMW to make changes to the oilpump. So they aren't perfect. Who knows if this maybe a cause ???

[JohnnyBoxer]

See my post, no.17 on your.......... 'Had a bad day' thread

[Keba]

Don't by any chance have (or have access to) any of the oil that was in the engine when it let go do you??

Analysis could show if the oil had a lot of air mixing in it.

Now that you mention that, I do remember SPC saying that BMW had taken away some oil for analysis.

I cleaned off all the oil I could so I could still use my leggings. Which means in effect that I don't have any samples.

I'll try to remember to ask BMW next time I talk to them though - if there was evidence of air in the oil, then it won't be because the bike was on its side lately, thats for sure.

[themadprofessor]

Thread from BMWSport Touring forum about a blown K1200 engine....

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthread...0/fpart/3/vc/1

Chris

[ianboydsnr]

I remember, the last time i went to scarbourough, a guy telling me his k1200 had blown up when touring in belgium, and he was waiting until bwm had inspected it, it only had 24k on, air in the pump, would wear the bike out in a few miles, not 30k, imho.

[MikeP]

I believe big ends #3 and #4 are roughly around the same place as where my legs are, so if they blew its possible (unconfirmed if that is indeed the placement of them) that my leg could have been taken off during the exit stage right procedure that the engine undertook. If anybody knows for sure on that front, please do say.

Unless you are an extremely od shape, no part of you would be alongside the engine on a K.

The pegs are alongside the gearbox so your right shin and foot would be to the rear of the rearmost cylinder.

[Bigtwin]

FWIW, I think you have a real result here - that's no small amount of "goodwill" gesture, which legally they were not obliged to make. When my 1100 engine fell to bits at 35k - BMW did not want to know at all!

So, are they hiding something? Well, one thing is for sure, unless you are prepared to throw a lot of time and effort into this, and probably rock the boat too far with the goodwill payment, you aren't going to find out in a month of Sundays, and probably not event then.

It's not a risk free business, putting money into motorcycles, and you've cleary got your ducks in line and worked to get a good resoultion to this - I'd save the stress, think that it could have been a lot worse in a number of ways, and get back to enjoying your riding.

[Keba]

Unless you are an extremely od shape, no part of you would be alongside the engine on a K.

The pegs are alongside the gearbox so your right shin and foot would be to the rear of the rearmost cylinder.

Cheers - wasn't certain myself as all I can see is lots of metal casing and I don't have a clue what it hides - thats the non-mechanic in me

FWIW, I think you have a real result here - that's no small amount of "goodwill" gesture, which legally they were not obliged to make. When my 1100 engine fell to bits at 35k - BMW did not want to know at all!

So, are they hiding something? Well, one thing is for sure, unless you are prepared to throw a lot of time and effort into this, and probably rock the boat too far with the goodwill payment, you aren't going to find out in a month of Sundays, and probably not event then.

It's not a risk free business, putting money into motorcycles, and you've cleary got your ducks in line and worked to get a good resoultion to this - I'd save the stress, think that it could have been a lot worse in a number of ways, and get back to enjoying your riding.

According to the warranty they didn't have to make a good will gesture - totally correct. Legally speaking though, a catastrophic engine failure of this kind on a vechicle that has been fully serviced (by BMW themselves no less) and the failure to inform me of this potential failure when repairing damage, would mean I have a very strong case if I did take it to court - I don't like getting that messy though for two reasons. a) I try to be a nice guy, and b) I do still want to have BMW bikes as an option when buying something new. Warranties are only a small aspect of the law in this situation.

There is a huge difference between the phrasing 'fell to bits' (I have no idea what you really mean ), and 'engine exploded while not under undue stress' - if your engine had indeed exploded and you had a full service history etc, then I'm sure the outcome would have been different.

[Bigtwin]

(by BMW themselves no less) and the failure to inform me of this potential failure when repairing damage, would mean I have a very strong case if I did take it to court - I don't like getting that messy though for two reasons. a) I try to be a nice guy, and b) I do still want to have BMW bikes as an option when buying something new. Warranties are only a small aspect of the law in this situation.

Can't agree, even in theory, and you bear the evidential burden, which you are going to have a hell of a job to discharge in the circumstances. Res Ipso isn't going to do it in a case like this - you would have to prove not fit, or that there had been, effectively, negligent service. So who are you going to sue? SPC? BMW? Both.

Trust me, history is littered with failed cases like this. And even if you won, you would probably spend more in unrecovered costs than the thing is worth.

Don't get me wrong here - I fully empathise with your situation. BUT - don't look a gift horse in the mouth - to better this situation through the courts, you'd have to go a loooong way up hill.

[Shep]

Just my opinion, you understand, but I agree with Bigtwin, I think you have had a result getting the engine replaced for minimal cost to yourself, any air in the oilways would quickly either dissipate quickly or destroy your engine quickly. Engines do not last long once a big end bearing fails, the failed bearing either allows the oil pressure to drop completely (by allowing all the oil to escape past the failed bearing) or the bearing itself breaks up and blocks other oilways in the engine.

Some more agricultural engines (read "crude" not farm) can run on almost zero oil pressure (due to centrifugal forces of the crankshaft producing enough oil pressure to prevent the bearing surfaces from touching) These are mostly engines with a top rev limit of around 1500rpm.

All engines, by their mechanical nature, have the potential to fail in a spectacular way, at the most inconvenient time, cars, bikes, aircraft, boats, lawn mowers etc , the reaction from the manufacturer in resolving the matter is what makes a difference, you've had a result, now get on with the rest of your life!

Shep

[Schnell Panzer]

All engines, by their mechanical nature, have the potential to fail in a spectacular way, at the most inconvenient time, cars, bikes, aircraft, boats, lawn mowers etc , the reaction from the manufacturer in resolving the matter is what makes a difference, you've had a result, now get on with the rest of your life!

It does make you think how would Honda, Kawasaki, Yahama, Suzuki, Triumph, Ducati, etc etc etc responded to a similar problem. Well done to both SPC & BMW

Didn't mention Hardleys (Goes) as they don't rev above 1500 rpm, do they!

[Kaister]

To qualify my statements below : I'm a fully trained bike mechanic - and been to lots of Honda/Kawasaki training days.

You are very lucky on a few counts.

1. If you had told BMW that at some point the bike had been running with it it on its side - they would have probably refused to replace your engine.
This is because your oil pump picks its oil up from the sump - at the bottom of the engine. Imagine your washing up bowl full of water and tip it thru 90 degrees - see what happens ? The big end farthest from the pump will fail first. Pumps and the pickup are now usually at the rear of the engine to keep oil supplied under hard acceleration.

2. Running the engine for any time under load would have cause instant big end failure - the fact it wasn't under load has started the wear process by picking up and scuffing the big end bearings and crank.

You effectively accelerated the wear by 200 thousand normal running miles.

This is why BMW asked if you'd ever seen the oil pressure light on - same deal.

You're also lucky you weren't hurt - i've had a con-rod fail ( twice on 2 different bikes ) and been lucky not to fall off at over 80mph - with oil all over the locked back tyre.
Both on older bikes with no warranties or goodwill etc and had to pay my own way out of it.

I'd be vary wary of the amount of oil put in the bike after the service - this is 'exactly' the kind of thing that would cause the next stage of engine failure.
Your clothes and bike may have been covered with oil - but 1/2 pint of hot oil goes a very long way.
However - BMW have accepted SPC's work standards on this - i personally can't see how because all the oil is now not in the bike.

By the way - SPC will claim all their labour directly from BMW - and make a tidy amount from it - believe me - warranty work is an earner not a loser for a workshop.

So - keep quiet - take the money/engine - pay for the clutch and either keep the bike - and don't drop it again - or sell it.
Reading all the other comments about k1200's - i'd say the lube system was already marginal - you pushed it over the edge by dropping it.

good luck
Phil

[Keba]

1. If you had told BMW that at some point the bike had been running with it it on its side - they would have probably refused to replace your engine.
This is because your oil pump picks its oil up from the sump - at the bottom of the engine. Imagine your washing up bowl full of water and tip it thru 90 degrees - see what happens ? The big end farthest from the pump will fail first. Pumps and the pickup are now usually at the rear of the engine to keep oil supplied under hard acceleration.

BMW know about the bike running on its side. This was covered in the conversation I had a week ago, and indeed they even fixed the damage (done under insurance) almost 2 years or 30,000 miles ago - depending on how you look at it.

They also failed to inform me that the bike running on its side (which it did for a few seconds) can cause this kind of issue in the future whilst repairing the damage. That alone is justifiable grounds for a court case if I was inclined that way. I'm not though unless pushed

2. Running the engine for any time under load would have cause instant big end failure - the fact it wasn't under load has started the wear process by picking up and scuffing the big end bearings and crank.

You effectively accelerated the wear by 200 thousand normal running miles.

Not quite sure if I'm misunderstanding this - so using the bike for the 30,000 miles after the snow mobile impersonation should have caused this failure at any time? Or that it just started the rapid deteroiation as indeed BMW are saying has happened? Not that 30,000 miles is 'rapid' in my opinion but rather more gradual - that there were no warning signs (BMW say the clutch wearing out at 16,500 miles is totally not related remember) causes me concern.

I did lay the bike down to rest when the stand slipped on what used to be gravel on my driveway (I've since had it totally redone using paving bricks as it was so bad) - but the engine was off the entire time - it also was being held up by me (as much as I can lift 250 kg on an angle) so didn't go totally 90 degrees. That was also around 10k to 15k miles ago. I could work it out I guess based on when the driveway was redone, but that requires too much thought BMW did say that if the engine is off and you lay a bike down, then the air doesn't get sucked into the pump, so wouldn't be a cause in that case regardless.

This is why BMW asked if you'd ever seen the oil pressure light on - same deal.

Understandable - its never come on though, so no warning in that respect.

You're also lucky you weren't hurt - i've had a con-rod fail ( twice on 2 different bikes ) and been lucky not to fall off at over 80mph - with oil all over the locked back tyre.
Both on older bikes with no warranties or goodwill etc and had to pay my own way out of it.

Thats the bit that worries me the most - I know for sure in this respect I was very lucky to be going in a straight line at the time and doing 65 mph - instead of going round a corner and accellerating as could easily have been the case given how many curves there are on my way to work.

I'd be vary wary of the amount of oil put in the bike after the service - this is 'exactly' the kind of thing that would cause the next stage of engine failure.
Your clothes and bike may have been covered with oil - but 1/2 pint of hot oil goes a very long way.
However - BMW have accepted SPC's work standards on this - i personally can't see how because all the oil is now not in the bike.

You should see the A34 Even after a week there is still a very noticable splash and then trail of oil ending up in the big pool of oil where the bike initially came to a halt. I'm fairly confident that enough oil was indeed put in the bike as part of the service as it looks like a truck blew up, not a motorbike.

By the way - SPC will claim all their labour directly from BMW - and make a tidy amount from it - believe me - warranty work is an earner not a loser for a workshop.

This isn't actually warranty work - more of a goodwill gesture based on the engine blowing up, so I'm not sure if SPC are able to claim their labour or not. Kudos to them if they can't (that alone would go a long way to make up for the customer service issues I had to start with during the clutch saga), and totally understandable if they can - I know if I was the dealer I'd be trying to recoup that cost too

So - keep quiet - take the money/engine - pay for the clutch and either keep the bike - and don't drop it again - or sell it.
Reading all the other comments about k1200's - i'd say the lube system was already marginal - you pushed it over the edge by dropping it.

I never do plan to drop bikes - both instances were indeed my fault, but at the same time I do like being told about potential engine explosions when having a bike repaired, rather than finding out the hard way... BMW failed to inform me even though they had ample opportunity to do so. I'd have a writeoff of a bike with no goodwill and no comeback at all otherwise, thats for sure!

Thanks for posting the above - I know my replies probably look like rebuttals (its my nature - I work in IT Security and consider myself a sad muppet as a result ) but its not aimed at you in the slightest if it looks like I'm being 'orrible.

I'm still in two minds on if I should be rid of the bike, or if I should keep it for another 2 years. I had originally planned on riding it for 5 years (I deprecate vechicles over 5 years you see), but given the only two parts of the bike that are now in warranty are the engine and clutch, and given the bad luck I've had so far this month on the bike I'm not sure if keeping it will actually be a good idea.

I might part-exchange it if I get a resonable offer, or I might sell it and buy something different. Given all I really use a bike for is commuting (40 to 60 miles one way depending on where I'm working), and I ride in all weathers, then a BMW is probably the best fit for me - I do like my comfort and toys! I guess I'll know for certain after I get the bike back and take a ride on it and see how I feel then.

Regardless I don't think I would buy another K1200RS. I'm now not so certain I'll buy a K1200S or K1200GT either, as that was my planned next choice to make before this year got underway. I think if somebody told me for certain that the new K1200 engine in the S and the GT were 'fixed' on the oil pump side of things then I'd still move in that direction - but without that assurance I'm now left trying to figure out what bike I will end up getting.

ABS, comfort and reliablity - its not much to ask for really, honest!

And before you all start, no, I'm not getting a GS - I'm never planning to go off road, and I could never get used to the vibration effect that the boxer engine gives out. Too much massaging for my ample frame, thats for sure!

[JohnnyBoxer]

The new K1200 S and R engine is a completely different engine design and sits transverse across the frame, rather than your engine which sits longitudinally along the frame and is tilted on its side, through 45 degrees