I.A.M fees.

hank · Dec 3, 2007

The IAM fees for new associates is going up from £85 to £109 from 1st February so if any of you are thinking of going down the I.A.M route it might be worth joining up sooner rather than later.

Hank. :beer:

Backmarker · Dec 3, 2007

After todays news report - IAM have rated road safety - got their voice heard - nothing about better training, all about removing trees from the roadside so that when cars come off the road people arent hurt.
One of the most disappointing experiences I have ever had, my insurance is through them, but when it is up for renewal next June I am off, and they can have their membership back. It is not what I signed up for.
Worse than that,It so reminded me of a local campaign 15 years ago. An old tree in a village a couple of miles from the town I grew up in. Over the years it gained a reputation as a killer tree. Every 3 years or so someone would come to grief on that tree, even though it was well inside the marked 40mph zone.
Eventually (about 10 years ago) the road safety mob cut down the tree. There is a ditch behind. Then a hedge, then a garden, then a house. It is now a 30mph zone, and the death rate just keeps increasing. The only thing the removal of the tree seems to have done is to remove an obvious place to place the flowers on.
I signed up for better road safety by me making the effort to learn how to be a better road user. Not to have trees cut down so that cars leaving the road dont kill people. :blast

Funny this, as road furniture is one of those things I fight against so strongly locally, but the IAM really pissed me off today, and as it seems to have been a major expenditure of money, and a major committment, I feel ok about just leaving.

Jaws · Dec 5, 2007

Proly gonna get my head bitten off but in my eyes IAM is a waste of time, money and effort..
I have a theory.
The more reflective material worn the better the rider thinks they are but the worse they are in reality.
And IAM is infested with people that honestly believe they are good, safe riders who are a cut above us 'prols'...

Almost all folk gain an awful lot from extra training ( no matter how old or how many miles you have done )

Go to the police and find out about a local Bike Safe course..

Proper training and advice from folk who really do 'do it for a living'.
Folk who are not so far up their own cleverness that people riding with them get an awful lot more from the experience than a list of dont's.

ton class · Dec 5, 2007

Jaws said:
Proly gonna get my head bitten off but in my eyes IAM is a waste of time, money and effort..
I have a theory.
The more reflective material worn the better the rider thinks they are but the worse they are in reality.
And IAM is infested with people that honestly believe they are good, safe riders who are a cut above us 'prols'...

Almost all folk gain an awful lot from extra training ( no matter how old or how many miles you have done )

Go to the police and find out about a local Bike Safe course.

Proper training and advice from folk who really do 'do it for a living'.
Folk who are not so far up their own cleverness that people riding with them get an awful lot more from the experience than a list of dont's.

Bikesafe is assessment & advice, not training. If you want training see someone who does it professionally. Police riders are not trainers unless they have done an instructors course, not many have.

It is one thing to know when something is being done wrong, it's another to analyse why the fault(s) occurring & then be able to devise a method acceptable to the pupil to fix the fault(s).

This is why car & bike examiners (whether DSA or Advanced) do not have to be instructors. They know what's right & wrong, but do not need the knowledge to be able to fix the problem.

You will also find that a good number of Bikesafe courses use the local IAM group to supplement the dearth of motorcycle bobbies & the bobbies are not necessarily Class 1 either.

IAM is not training, it is assessment & advice - sometimes good, sometimes not so good.

RoSPA Group might be training if you are lucky enough to get a Diploma holder & he/she wants to impart a little extra. Even the normal RoSPA tutors have had proper training from a Diploma holders so the quality is likely to be better - and they have to retrain both tutor & riding skills every three years.

ton class · Dec 5, 2007

Jaws said:
I have a theory.
The more reflective material worn the better the rider thinks they are but the worse they are in reality.

Not put much thought into this, have you? Police riders wear Hi-Viz, they're usually pretty good at it.

Jaws · Dec 5, 2007

Plenty of thought went into it. It has been my pet hobby for years in fact..

Ok, will clarify just for the pedants and the picky gits out there

There are riders who are profesional and those that think adding a tabbard makes them a profesional.

And yes, of course you are spot on re the training. But a word of advice and an observation from a police rider is often worth a 100 from someone who.. well lets just say who is not a pro rider shall we ..

ROSPA
All my dealings with ROSPA over the years have always been positive.. but never dealt with the folk in a rider training environment.. I would have to agree the RoSPA peeps are well worth listening to.

Droopy Dick · Dec 6, 2007

ton class said:
IAM is not training, it is assessment & advice - sometimes good, sometimes not so good.

RoSPA Group might be training if you are lucky enough to get a Diploma holder & he/she wants to impart a little extra. Even the normal RoSPA tutors have had proper training from a Diploma holders so the quality is likely to be better - and they have to retrain both tutor & riding skills every three years.

I agree to some extent about the IAM.

They specifically discount the word training in the (mistaken) belief that if you're just 'Observing' you might not get slammed if things go pear-shaped and you end up in Court. I think it'd take a 1st-year Law student all of 5 seconds to demolish this concept. If you're 'advising' or 'suggesting' you are nonetheless instructing. A case of the rose by any other name.

However, some IAM groups put their Observers through very thorough training, East Kent, Thames Vale and Middlesex coming to mind.

The RoSPA National Diploma course lasts for 5 days and is purely an instruction course. You'll probably find that most of the very effective/efficient RoSPA bike groups will put a lot of theory and practical training effort into their Tutors/Instructors before they are signed off as acceptable.

In my group much of the training is from a Police instructor and all new 'Approved Tutors are 'signed off' by three different Advanced Tutors (not all of whom have the Diploma but all of whom have been rigorously checked by a Police examiner.

shready · Dec 6, 2007

Droopy Dick said:
However, some IAM groups put their Observers through very thorough training, East Kent, Thames Vale and Middlesex coming to mind.

I trained with East Kent and can vouch for the quality of their observers.

I passed and am chuffed I passed with Jon Taylor, one of the best riders in the country, I'm sure some on here have heard of him. I don't wear a florescent anything, but have taken on board what I learnt with them and use it daily to supplement what I have learnt commuting and riding over the years.

Ultimately, I have a healthy respect of pain and avoid solid objects, but above all keep within my limits

beemerboy9 · Dec 8, 2007

shready said:
I don't wear a florescent anything,

Poor you, poor me, poor white van man, poor foreign driver in a left-hand drive articulated lorry!

When I leave the house bleary-eyed at 5.45a.m. on a Monday morning to drive my cage from North London to Glastonbury I really notice the bikers wearing FLOURESCENT TABARDS.

I will especialy allow them extra room to filter.

hope this helps,

John

Shrek · Dec 12, 2007

The IAM have done a lot recently to improve the standard of Observers countrywide. All senior observers need to be assessed by a Staff Examiner (Jon Taylor being one of them) to a very high standard. This knowledge and training is then passed on down the ranks to the other observers and all the training of new observers is overseen by Senior Observers.

Unfortunately these new standards were only introduced 18 months ago and it will be at least another 4 ½ years until ALL IAM observers are at this same standard.

I agree there are a lot of ego’s in the IAM. Most of whom are just badge collectors. They pass the test then sit back telling the world how good they are, but never do any more to improve their skills. That’s where the RoSPA idea of re-test every 3 years works so well, but the sheer number of IAM members would make this an impossible feat.

I personally gained a lot from the IAM, but how much you learn depends entirely on the amount of effort your prepared to put in. I like to think I am a reasonably good rider after Jon Taylor did my Senior Observer test, but next to a class1 Police rider I’m just average. What does that make the average rider???
I find that most folk who slag the IAM off have never even given it a try sighting comments like, it’s all high Viz, BMW’s and Beards.

As for Hi-Viz…. I never wear it. I believe it installs a false sense of security into its wearer. I would rather ride thinking that no one has seen me, than ride complacent with Hi-Viz . With more training, you should never be in a situation where Hi-Viz will get you out of trouble. Don’t go up the blind side of foreign lorries for example, unless you can get out the other side. Forward observation and planning are the only things that are going to keep you alive.

CBFer · Dec 12, 2007

Shrek said:
As for Hi-Viz…. I never wear it. I believe it installs a false sense of security into its wearer. I would rather ride thinking that no one has seen me, than ride complacent with Hi-Viz .

Do you speak from personal experience? It's called "risk compensation" or some such thing, isn't it? Apparently drivers of cars fitted with umpteen airbags, a safety cell, ABS, etc drive more quickly than they otherwise would because they feel "safer" and believe that even if they did have an accident, the chances are they would be able to walk away from it unscathed. But does this effect apply to the wearer of Hi Viz? Do Hi Viz wearers take more risks because they believe they are more visible? Do they plough through hazards without reducing their speed because they assume the vehicle driver waiting at the junction must have seen them? Perhaps some do. But aren't those that don't going to be that bit safer? Perhaps it's a subconcious thing though? Perhaps riders do ride differently while wearing Hi Viz - without even realising it. :nenau

Shrek · Dec 12, 2007

Wearing Hi-Viz deffinately makes you more visible, and it will go a long way to making the “not quite woken up” road users spot you sooner, but they are not the ones you need to worry about. It’s the SMIDSY’s that you really need to worry about and it won’t matter what you’ve got on. If they don’t look, they won’t see.

Not wearing Hi-Viz works for me, but it should be up to the individual to do what makes them safer (which is not necessarily what makes them feel more comfortable)

Bananaman · Dec 12, 2007

Jaws said:
Proly gonna get my head bitten off but in my eyes IAM is a waste of time, money and effort..
I have a theory.
The more reflective material worn the better the rider thinks they are but the worse they are in reality.
And IAM is infested with people that honestly believe they are good, safe riders who are a cut above us 'prols'....

Disagree with most of your thoughts, I find that no education / training is a waste of time, however as another reply stated it depends on what your attitude towards training and learning are, also what effort you put in.

I suppose I could just have been lucky with my instructors / observers, maybe other groups have differing standards.

I do remember one trainee who was a particular p.i.t.a. though, and really marvelled how patient and professional several instructors were towards this person over a number of weeks.
I would have kicked his arse many times, thank feck I was not his instructor.

Perhaps you would fit into this catagory of trainee. :confused:

Go on why not get your IAM, then I'll respect your opinion. (your now going to tell me you have done and speak from experience

)

Burfcontrol · Dec 22, 2007

Originally Posted by Shrek
As for Hi-Viz…. I never wear it. I believe it installs a false sense of security into its wearer. I would rather ride thinking that no one has seen me, than ride complacent with Hi-Viz .

I never used to wear hi viz, thinking if I'm on the bike and they don't see my lights they ain't gonna see my jacket - but now I changed my mind. Why?
Well if I come off and end up lying in the middle of the road too banged up to move I wanna be seen, and hi viz will do that.
Also, when it's raining at night it's easier to distinguish hi-viz from all the other lights dancing about in the rain.
I wouldn't say I take more risks or rely on the hi viz, but I do feel I've improved the odds slightly in my favour.

Navy Boy · Dec 22, 2007

Mmm...

I agree with the thought that any training's effectiveness depends on one's attitude towards it.

My experience with the IAM thus far (I'm doing my test on 19 Jan but I'll get to that in a minute) has been largely good with some notable exceptions. Those exceptions have been when I went out on an 'Advanced' pace rideout - Thinking I was going to learn something. Oh dear... Dodgy overtakes, being overtaken whilst waiting to enter a roundabout, people riding 50Mph+ past me... in a 30Mph zone. It really was a case of the boys out for a ride (There were no lady riders with us that day), riding like tw*ts yet doing it under the guise of the IAM therefore thinking that they were great. Not surprisingly I haven't been out on any more 'Advanced' ride since...

As for my test date I turned up at the beginning of Dec to be met by a chap in a Volvo... I'd been booked in with the car examiner by mistake. This after having my original application form rejected by head office (A form that had been sent to me by my observer) as it wasn't the correct one! Then after sending the proper form back and waiting another 3+ weeks for a new date the car chap turns up!!

On the positive side my observer has been really good, easy to talk to and constructive, the other members I've met have been pleasant and I still get the feeling that the organisation has a lot to offer me.

Just my two pence's worth...

HR0 · Dec 24, 2007

sounds like a really dodgy group. i trained with south cheshire and they are bril. good with gentle advice, and explaining why, and sticking to all limits for training and tests. but hinting that whilst all red circle limits are to be obeyed on a ride out the derestricted are to be ridden in a safe and competant manor ;-)

good luck with the test, just balance the making progress with careful riding.

you can show you are looking for overtakes even if you don't take them. you have a chance to talk through your ride at the end to put your perspective.

yes i wear hi viz always have, doesn't stop the cars not seeing you tho !!!!
you still have to ride as if they are out to get you though.

i think it gives bikers better PR, not high speed race replicas or all in black shaddows.

i do recognise ones right to be their own person.

ChrisG · Dec 28, 2007

IAM

Not sure if Jaws has ever been to the IAM, but around 14 months ago I decided that joining the local IAM was something that would give me a good reason to get out on the bike and teach me something too.

Last winter I was out on my bike most weekends (for the first time in a while) and while the 'observing' is done by members of the IAM, the aim is to put you in front of a searching test which will be carried out by a serving police class 1 rider. My own test was a grueling two hour ride through every kind of traffic, including low speed riding.

When I took my IAM test at the age of 45 having been riding since I was 16 it was the most thorough examination of my riding that I had ever undertaken - how can preparing for this be a bad thing?

Don't get me wrong, I think that the IAM has significant room for improvement, in particular I really do not like the stance it takes on the need to filter at all times - but I would recommend taking the test to any rider.

As for the hi vis argument, I have two HG outfits - one black, one with a hi vis yellow jacket. I use both, but I know which one I prefer for commuting and its not because I assume people will see me, but I like every little bit of help that I can get.

Chris

'Nuffsaid · Dec 28, 2007

shready said:
I passed and am chuffed I passed with Jon Taylor, one of the best riders in the country, I'm sure some on here have heard of him.

I had my IAM test with Jon Taylor - That man is in a league of his own

With regard to fluorescent gear, whatever can help my visibility - be it , clothing, lighting, positioning or training ... it all adds a little to let the life fairies help me win the battle. It isn't the answer and only an idiot would rely on it to protect them, however anything, however small that can increase the odds in your favour has got to be a good thing?

Bananaman · Jan 3, 2008

'Nuffsaid said:
With regard to fluorescent gear, whatever can help my visibility - be it , clothing, lighting, positioning or training ... it all adds a little to let the life fairies help me win the battle. It isn't the answer and only an idiot would rely on it to protect them, however anything, however small that can increase the odds in your favour has got to be a good thing?

My sentiments exactly. Well said that man.

AndyW · Jan 5, 2008

hank said:
The IAM fees for new associates is going up from £85 to £109 from 1st February so if any of you are thinking of going down the I.A.M route it might be worth joining up sooner rather than later.

Hank.

NB: £89 if you're under 26 years of age (excludes 99.9% of 'tossers' I guess :augie

)

NB2: Don't foget you can sign up and pay before the price increase but hold off doing the observed rides until the weathers a bit better ;-)

Find a IAM group local to you:
http://www.iam.org.uk/iamgroups/groupdirectory/

I.A.M fees.

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