Safety Glance / Lifesaver?

[Giles]

Brilliant thread and thanks to Giles for taking the time to point out stuff.

This leads me to a question about retaining focus on longer journeys. I often tell myself 'heads up', i.e. Keep observing as my focus reduces with time, but the reality is sometimes you just need to push on. Any tips?

I guess there's no magic bullet answer to this. Ultimately being 'bike fit' will see you being able to sit in the saddle for longer both physically and mentally. Because I spend my working day on a bike my 'bike fitness' is good so I tend not to suffer from aches and pains or concentration loss. My wife on the other hand only goes pillion once in a while, so when we hit the summer two week tour she gets absolutely exhausted within a few days because she's not 'bike fit'.

Noise is a big factor to concentration levels and tiredness. A quiet lid and effective earplugs will really help as of course will decent bike kit that is comfortable and cool / warm. Make sure it's all 'done up' properly. Nothing like an itchy sock or a draught down your neck to keep distracting you for hours on end! On that .... I always have a little mental check list before i set off. Another real distraction to your concentration is if you've left a pocket open and now you're constantly thinking about what was in it or some scenario like that. Spending just two minutes patting yourself down, double checking panniers locks, wallets, keys ... you name it, means that when you set off, mentally you've not got a distracting nagging doubt nibbling the back of your mind.

And yes, the others are quite correct about having a break. In the Rapid training days the students always ride really well after lunch where they've had a break, had time to process all that info and start again fresh.

Even Johno managed to improve after lunch ...

 

[Engineer]

We have all at times riden/driven a route well known to us, yet if you were questioned about it you probably couldn't recall most of it. Obviously the "geniuses" that reside here will say they never do such a thing.

A fool learns by his own mistakes, a wise man learns by others is an interesting proverb which can be taken on several levels.

As for pushing on whilst tired, the honest amongst us will recognise this and what were not really sensible reason's for justifying the increased risk taking. No not even for a shag !!!

When you are cold/wet your judgement becomes impaired, lots of medical studies to that effect.

I recommend Psychology of driving as a good starting point, I'm hopeful that I get funding for research in to risk taking in 35-55 year olds. Lots of research into younger drivers and also pensioners, but why does someone who's been driving/riding for 25+ years take the risks that they do, what is their rational ???

Deep thought for the morning

Would you get on an aircraft if the pilot had done no training in the past 30 years, if not why get into someone's car/ back of bike. What is your justification for this risk ??

Justification for risk is reward.

 

[Tractors are go]

And the reward is not killing yourself or some innocent soul instead.

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[tadhgocuilleain]

This is a great thread. It's great to read all the different views/opinions being discussed in a civil manner. Thanks to Giles for taking the time to explain everything in such detail.

Brilliant thread and thanks to Giles for taking the time to point out stuff.

This leads me to a question about retaining focus on longer journeys. I often tell myself 'heads up', i.e. Keep observing as my focus reduces with time, but the reality is sometimes you just need to push on. Any tips?

When I've been riding for a few hours, I find that the world shrinks. That is, the amount of the world I'm aware of shrinks. At the start, I'm observing everything in a 200m radius but as I get tired that radius shrinks to 180m, 150m, 100m… That's when I know I'm getting tired. When that happens, I start talking myself through what I'm doing. I have to consciously think about checking my mirrors and surroundings, and looking far ahead. As I get more tired, I find that even when I consciously look, my brain is slower processing the information, so I have to slow down to give my brain time to process what I'm seeing. Those lines Giles described take a lot of processing power to calculate, so when I'm tired and pushing on, I don't ride those lines. I revert back to the RSA/DSA method of plodding along in the centre of my own lane. I might move about a bit within my lane, but nothing too adventurous.

The golden rule of "Always be able to stop on your own side of the road, in the distance you can see to be clear" will rarely let you down. Sometimes the limiting factor won't be the stopping ability of the bike, but my own ability to process what I'm observing.

There's always a point where it's just not safe to continue and you have to rest.
I usually ride with my visor open a crack, or drive with the window open a crack. I find the constant fresh air helps keep me from getting tired. Opening the visor after you're tired is too late.

 

[Delboy777]

Justification for risk is reward.

Fuse changer, you do spout some rubbish on here. Hope i never have the misfortune of coming across you on the road, your an accident waiting to happen with an attitude like that.


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[Engineer]

Fuse changer, you do spout some rubbish on here. Hope i never have the misfortune of coming across you on the road, your an accident waiting to happen with an attitude like that.


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Clearly not as much rubbish as you - I will learn you summin, now listen carefully please....

Riding a motorcycle is risky so why do we do it? Because it is fun; fun is the reward for the risk we take - simples. There are many things in life that are based upon risk/reward, e.g. betting on the horses at the Grand National, the risk is that we lose our money, the reward is a bit of fun.

So a girl riding pillion with someone she doesn't know very well, why does she do such a risky thing? Easy because she likes excitement and is prepared to take the risk.

Etc etc etc etc etc.....

 

[Tractors are go]

So the having unprotected sex with people you don't know, with risk of becoming HIV + is a risk you are willing to take for "fun"

I think we have a different approach to risks and risk taking.

Auntie Betty trained me really hard, you practiced, practiced and then some more. There is no such thing as being too prepared.

I enjoy learning, to understand and question, expanding my knowledge. And for those who know me, be f*cking challenging too.

Navy definition of an Expert

EX = has been
Spurt = drip under pressure.

When you work with electrickery do you just "hope" it isn't live, check beforehand and do what you were trained to do OR just make it up as you go along ?

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[Engineer]

So the having unprotected sex with people you don't know, with risk of becoming HIV + is a risk you are willing to take for "fun"

I think we have a different approach to risks and risk taking.

Auntie Betty trained me really hard, you practiced, practiced and then some more. There is no such thing as being too prepared.

I enjoy learning, to understand and question, expanding my knowledge. And for those who know me, be f*cking challenging too.

Navy definition of an Expert

EX = has been
Spurt = drip under pressure.

When you work with electrickery do you just "hope" it isn't live, check beforehand and do what you were trained to do OR just make it up as you go along ?

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We all have a different view of risk/reward. We each assess the amount of perceived risk in any activity and balance it against the perceived reward. There are many people who would never ride a motorcycle because 'they' consider it too risky, we all ride motorcycles because we assess the risk and balance that against how much fun it is and have described that it's worth it, we have some control over the risk too so sometimes we go a bit faster in full knowledge that we are increasing our risk.

Some people might think the rewards of unprotected sex with a stranger is worth the risk - we are all different but the point is the justification for doing risky things is our perception of the reward - which answers the question you posed at the end of your post.

 

[Delboy777]

Clearly not as much rubbish as you - I will learn you summin, now listen carefully please....

Riding a motorcycle is risky so why do we do it? Because it is fun; fun is the reward for the risk we take - simples. There are many things in life that are based upon risk/reward, e.g. betting on the horses at the Grand National, the risk is that we lose our money, the reward is a bit of fun.

So a girl riding pillion with someone she doesn't know very well, why does she do such a risky thing? Easy because she likes excitement and is prepared to take the risk.

Etc etc etc etc etc.....

You don't learn anyone but oneself, you TEACH someone else. Tut tut,that about sums you up fuseboy.


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[Engineer]

You don't learn anyone but oneself, you TEACH someone else. Tut tut,that about sums you up fuseboy.


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Perhaps you fee most comfortable following rules and conventions? Which is fine but some people are prepared to take more risks and that is how things progress, the more you risk the higher the rewards can be.

Anyway this is getting off topic so I will start a new Risk-Reward thread

 

[Tractors are go]

As I understand it, the point of having a system for riding is risk reduction. No system is 100% foolproof; that's why they are fools !!!

It is about enabling risks to be identified and then managed in easily digested and managed bite sized chunks. This reduces the likelihood of overtasking and making mistakes or in this scenario, crashing your bike.

As has already been said; when you're "bike fit" you are more able to ride within your comfort zone with less apparent effort.

It is about being honest over your present riding, we all have days where we are "off". You can't always put your finger on the why, but know you're not riding as well as you can do.

Stop, have a break, relax; accept good days/bad days, slow down and give yourself more processing time and get where you're going safely.

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[Khulu]

Fuse changer, you do spout some rubbish on here. Hope i never have the misfortune of coming across you on the road, your an accident waiting to happen with an attitude like that.


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I love your new name for "Engineer" - he may not be of the electrical variety but I'm guessing he is! Sorry "Engineer".

 

[Engineer]

I love your new name for "Engineer" - he may not be of the electrical variety but I'm guessing he is! Sorry "Engineer".

ELECTRONICS NOT ELECTRICAL!

P.S. rarely use changeable fuses these days, mostly PTC types these days.

 

[Khulu]

ELECTRONICS NOT ELECTRICAL!

P.S. rarely use changeable fuses these days, mostly PTC types these days.

Shit! Me too!!!!

 

[Nutty]

You can tell it's winter

 

[King Rat]

Justification for risk is reward.

Sorry guys, but I have ti agree with Engineer here.

I know you love to have a pop at him, but this statement is well a known fact. I don't believe this is Engineers stance on riding, he is merely restating a known principle.

It doesn't matter what activity you question, this statement holds true for the practitioners. You must devolve yourself from the equation too. You cannot judge other peoples' risk assessment by your own. If you did that according to mine, you would never sit on a bike. I know you are all far better and faster riders than I am (my front wheel has left tarmac ONCE in over 45 years of riding, and that was by mistake...it has never happened again and I have no wish to repeat the experience!)

Every dangerous activity has a RISK v REWARD assessment attached to it - so Engineer's statement is perfectly true. You ALL do it every time you make a judgement / decision -do I overtake or not? You run through a serties of micro descisions, based on risk v reward...could there be something coming? Go On then, I'll open the throttle...or SHIT NO, I'll wait for the next straight. THAT is risk v reward. RISK = possibility of hitting head on. Reward = faster progress, Weigh one against the other...risk v reward.

Sory but that simplistic statement is EXACTLLY how we go throuhgh life. EVERY decision is a rsik v reward one, based on our experience up to yhe point of having to make the decision. The knowledge used in processing the risk can be from personal experience, or hearsay from others. Put all the information together and weigh it up against the situation in front of us....our decision is based upon all that - and it happens faster than an eye can blink. Isn't the brain a wonderful organ. If only I had one.

 

[Micky]

Isn't the brain a wonderful organ. If only I had one.

So that just nullifies your post then Simon

 

[bigtwin]

As Engineer and King Rat have stated, the risk versus reward statement is very true and applies to every activity that we undertake.

If we wish to enjoy the benefits of a reward (be that getting to a particular destination (work, visiting family), altering our mind's state (through alcohol/drugs), an adrenaline rush (bungee jumping, BASE jumping), more power/torque/better fuelling via Hilltopping etc. then we have to judge our tolerance to the associated risks (car/bike/plane crash, trashed liver, violent torso/ground interface, compulsion to ride at every opportunity!!! Etc) before we decide whether or not we will commit to seeking the reward.

 

[Engineer]

Sorry guys, but I have ti agree with Engineer here.

I know you love to have a pop at him, but this statement is well a known fact. I don't believe this is Engineers stance on riding, he is merely restating a known principle.

It doesn't matter what activity you question, this statement holds true for the practitioners. You must devolve yourself from the equation too. You cannot judge other peoples' risk assessment by your own. If you did that according to mine, you would never sit on a bike. I know you are all far better and faster riders than I am (my front wheel has left tarmac ONCE in over 45 years of riding, and that was by mistake...it has never happened again and I have no wish to repeat the experience!)

Every dangerous activity has a RISK v REWARD assessment attached to it - so Engineer's statement is perfectly true. You ALL do it every time you make a judgement / decision -do I overtake or not? You run through a serties of micro descisions, based on risk v reward...could there be something coming? Go On then, I'll open the throttle...or SHIT NO, I'll wait for the next straight. THAT is risk v reward. RISK = possibility of hitting head on. Reward = faster progress, Weigh one against the other...risk v reward.

Sory but that simplistic statement is EXACTLLY how we go throuhgh life. EVERY decision is a rsik v reward one, based on our experience up to yhe point of having to make the decision. The knowledge used in processing the risk can be from personal experience, or hearsay from others. Put all the information together and weigh it up against the situation in front of us....our decision is based upon all that - and it happens faster than an eye can blink. Isn't the brain a wonderful organ. If only I had one.

You put it far more eloquently than me

 

[mspenz]

Good stuff this is what we need rather than the post's on knife sharpening and photography

I have a mate in the police who makes knives and they are absolutely stunning...should we be concerned