1100 telelever flex (need your wisdom)

[thander]

Hi to all GSsers!

I would really appreciate it if you had any suggestions on the problem that has been torturing me for almost a year. It's about a lovely 1998 anniversary 1100 GS that has just reached 95 k kms.

There is some time know that I experience troubles with my telelever. I cannot exactly detect the cause, but the symptom is inaccuracy in the entrance of a turn and lack of confidence riding off road.

Especially, after a ride off-road and me complaining all the time, we checked with my mates the front system holding the handlebars steady locked at one side and trying to turn the wheel left and right. We detected significant play of the wheel, but not shot-bearing-play, but more of a flex.

We concluded that the fault was on the upper tripple clamp rubber joint links. (the telelever ball joint had been changed some 20k kms ago). I mean these things here:

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sM2-qRD4gc-H26Zyx6-BvNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hJIgmMK6Vig/Tza1h7xLjQI/AAAAAAAABEk/D1NG4ckwEQ0/s144/joint.JPG" height="144" width="121" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/thanvg/Telelever?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">telelever</a></td></tr></table>

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/sM2-qRD4gc-H26Zyx6-BvNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

I got them, fitted them, and nothing, the flex was there.
So, a more careful check showed that there was flex between the fork leg (fork slider) and the fork stanchion. So, off go the stanchions, and I replace a bronze bush and four plastic pipes per leg (ok, the seals as well). The parts are here

<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TOvODUHHv8WajgDLJfKmm9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Ax1lHGCwhhk/Tza1h5A6A1I/AAAAAAAABEY/VFx-_VMlfxk/s144/bushes.JPG" height="144" width="127" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/thanvg/Telelever?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">telelever</a></td></tr></table>

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/TOvODUHHv8WajgDLJfKmm9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

and the pipes
<table style="width:auto;"><tr><td><a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/r3hCNUeaeRnLDDiXK6T0N9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=embedwebsite"><img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-d78ciPpNk5A/Tza1iJzxlpI/AAAAAAAABEc/tIPKa-jyCLM/s144/pipes.JPG" height="144" width="102" /></a></td></tr><tr><td style="font-family:arial,sans-serif; font-size:11px; text-align:right">From <a href="https://picasaweb.google.com/thanvg/Telelever?authuser=0&feat=embedwebsite">telelever</a></td></tr></table>

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/r3hCNUeaeRnLDDiXK6T0N9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

I have to notice here that the new pipes measured practically the same as the old ones, and both the new and old were significantly larger in diameter than the fork stanchion. That is, with everything dismantled, if the fork stanchion was inserted in one of the pipes there was huge play. Anyway...

The problem is that the problem was not solved with this either. Bike still seems to be steering inaccurately, especially going into a corner, something that it certainly didn't do earlier.
My tires, regular tourances, are not new (some 10k kms) but not very worn either. Anyhow, I have ridden in the past with tires close to having no thread, and never had similar issues.
Tripple clamp bearing seems solid, wheel bearings have no play, and, additionally, paralever is solid as well.

My mate's 1150 Gs has not flexes at all doing the same test (handlebar locked-turn wheel sideways). The flex on my bike's telelever, is actually visible, especially between the slider and the stanchion.

If anybody has any ideas on this, it would be really helpful....Or if anybody was kind enough to check their telelever for this kind of flex and report...
I ride the bike daily, and used to have fun with it, but know it has almost become annoying, the worst thing being not able to detect the cause of my problems.

sorry for the really long post, thanks in advance for any help.
Cheers
Thanos

 

[ducatiparts.110mb]

You've done all the right things, so you've probably already checked these - but are the pinch bolts tight where the telelever bridge grips the fork legs, and also the wheel spindle nut and pinch bolts?

These will make the fork lowers move as a single part making it more rigid and maybe reducing your problem - although it sounds like you've already thought of that.

 

[thander]

You've done all the right things, so you've probably already checked these - but are the pinch bolts tight where the telelever bridge grips the fork legs, and also the wheel spindle nut and pinch bolts?

These will make the fork lowers move as a single part making it more rigid and maybe reducing your problem - although it sounds like you've already thought of that.

yeap, everything properly torqued....

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

tyre pressures ? - 36F -42R

front and rear shock still good ?

you've changed lots of things that you were convinced were worn with no difference - i think you 're imagining front end problems.

look everywhere





( Tourances went through a bad batch if its taken you 10k to try and fix the problem )
Front tyres gave the same sort of feeling you are getting - a few threads on here about it.

 

[Fanum]

Faulty tourance?

 

[thander]

i think you 're imagining front end problems.

Thanks for the replies guys!

My tourances don't fall in the recall batch.
My own fear is also that I may be imaging the whole thing, that's why I am asking about the flexes in other 1100s. All replacements were done comparing the flexes to a 1150 GS which has none...

 

[Puffin]

Hi to all GSsers!

There is some time know that I experience troubles with my telelever. I cannot exactly detect the cause, but the symptom is inaccuracy in the entrance of a turn and lack of confidence riding off road.

Thanos, it sounds as if you have eliminated most possible causes of anything un-normal or life Threatening But the symptoms you descibe, the vague feeling is the Telelever....... Spend some time adjusting your shockabsorber(s). It helps but does not completely remove the Feeling


The 1150 Fork is a stiffer construction than the 1100 so might not be ideal for a comparison

 

[thander]

Thanos, it sounds as if you have eliminated most possible causes of anything un-normal or life Threatening But the symptoms you descibe, the vague feeling is the Telelever....... Spend some time adjusting your shockabsorber(s). It helps but does not completely remove the Feeling


The 1150 Fork is a stiffer construction than the 1100 so might not be ideal for a comparison

Dear Puffin, the thing is that I have the bike for almost 5 years, and have had a lot of fun with this fat lady (compared to the light supermotos I have been used to). No problem whatsoever until the problem occurred....

Anyone with a 1100 that can attest to the flexes between the stanchions and the sliders??

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

Dear Puffin, the thing is that I have the bike for almost 5 years, and have had a lot of fun with this fat lady (compared to the light supermotos I have been used to). No problem whatsoever until the problem occurred....

Anyone with a 1100 that can attest to the flexes between the stanchions and the sliders??

the whole reason for the telelever front end is to route the forces into the centre of the bike through the solid engine.
any play in the forks is negated, but the ball joint is critical, as is the tyre

 

[thander]

the whole reason for the telelever front end is to route the forces into the centre of the bike through the solid engine.
any play in the forks is negated, but the ball joint is critical, as is the tyre

I 'm with you on this, but still, I think (until somebody proves otherwise) that such flexes in the steering system aren't normal, especially between the stanchions and sliders. It is not a matter of the upper, triple clamp, rubber joint links, they are fine.
Οn my bike, you can hold the handlebars and, literally, turn the wheel a couple of degrees sideways and observe the stanchions move inside the sliders. And, at the same time, a 1150 is rock solid on the same test, which, I don't think is due to a more robust telelever construction...

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

I 'm with you on this, but still, I think (until somebody proves otherwise) that such flexes in the steering system aren't normal, especially between the stanchions and sliders. It is not a matter of the upper, triple clamp, rubber joint links, they are fine.
Οn my bike, you can hold the handlebars and, literally, turn the wheel a couple of degrees sideways and observe the stanchions move inside the sliders. And, at the same time, a 1150 is rock solid on the same test, which, I don't think is due to a more robust telelever construction...

spot the difference - 1100 to 1150

its not your problem - its your tyre or your shocks or your ball joint not torqued up enough.

PS you can do the same on an R100 and the front wheel moves 10 deg either way.

 

[justabof]

Οn my bike, you can hold the handlebars and, literally, turn the wheel a couple of degrees sideways and observe the stanchions move inside the sliders...

So, this sounds like the stanchions would move inside the sliders if the fork legs were removed from the bike (ie. nothing to do with ball joints, spindles etc.)

If this is so, it suggests excess play between fork bushes (the bottom ones?)and the slider.

Therefore, is it your fork sliders that are worn internally to such an extent that the bottom bushes have too much clearance? Some side-to-side play may be acceptable, but if it is easily felt (and heard!) there may be excess clearance.

I had something similar on some Guzzi forks. They don't even use bushes - the stanchion fits inside the slider with direct contact - but the play they had developed was due to the inner bore of the sliders being worn. The cure was a new (well, better second-hand) pair of sliders.

 

[justabof]

Anyone with a 1100 that can attest to the flexes between the stanchions and the sliders??

I've just had a good look at mine. It's a 1999 1100GS with 24000 miles on the clock.

If I turn the wheel to full lock an then pull hard on the end of the handlebar, there is some 'flex' (ie. the bar moves but the wheel does not) but there is no detectable play at the slider/stanchions. (I have a T-a-T hard part on the front, which prevents the top yoke hitting the lock stops when the bars are pulled hard.)

I think that your problem is worn sliders (see my earlier post), and your comment:
''That is, with everything dismantled, if the fork stanchion was inserted in one of the pipes there was huge play. Anyway...''
This also sounds like worn stanchions, if the top bush is very loose.

Does anyone on here know what the standard internal diameter of the slider and external diameter of the stanchion should be? It would be hard to measure the i/d of the bottom of the slider anyway, I suppose.
Maybe your friendly BMW dealer would let you try your stanchion with a new slider? Probably little chance of this!

Worn sliders are not uncommon, in general. I've not seen anyone comment on them on this forum, but as well a my Guzzi (see earlier post,) I've known of Commandos with worn sliders

 

[thander]

So, this sounds like the stanchions would move inside the sliders if the fork legs were removed from the bike (ie. nothing to do with ball joints, spindles etc.)

If this is so, it suggests excess play between fork bushes (the bottom ones?)and the slider.

Therefore, is it your fork sliders that are worn internally to such an extent that the bottom bushes have too much clearance? Some side-to-side play may be acceptable, but if it is easily felt (and heard!) there may be excess clearance.

I had something similar on some Guzzi forks. They don't even use bushes - the stanchion fits inside the slider with direct contact - but the play they had developed was due to the inner bore of the sliders being worn. The cure was a new (well, better second-hand) pair of sliders.

That's why I changed the whole set of plastic and bronze bushes in both sliders. I really can't imagine the sliders wearing out instead of the pushes and plastic tubes, that's why I am here hitting my head wondering...

 

[thander]

... but there is no detectable play at the slider/stanchions.

That's what I've been talking about....In mine, apart from feeling it with the hand on the slider/stanchion junction, you can even see the move by naked eye....

 

[justabof]

vagueness

Me again! Another thought - although I think that the play between slider and stanchion may be due to worn sliders, the 'vagueness' you describe could be caused by your front shock losing its damping abilities.

 

[thander]

Me again! Another thought - although I think that the play between slider and stanchion may be due to worn sliders, the 'vagueness' you describe could be caused by your front shock losing its damping abilities.

Yeap, that has also been one of Kaister's suggestions. I must admit that the shock is, indeed, a suspect, I'll try to find one for a test!

 

[justabof]

I really can't imagine the sliders wearing out instead of the pushes and plastic tubes, that's why I am here hitting my head wondering...

Believe me, sliders DO wear! I can't state categorically from my own experience with BMW's, but I've owned and known of other makes that have had this problem.

Wear occurs in strange ways. Have you ever seen a cast-steel steering head forging that was worn by being rubbed by the plastic sheathing of the wiring harness?
If new bushes are a very loose fit, then either the bushes are not correct dimensions, or the surface that they rub against has worn.

 

[thander]

Believe me, sliders DO wear! I can't state categorically from my own experience with BMW's, but I've owned and known of other makes that have had this problem.

Wear occurs in strange ways. Have you ever seen a cast-steel steering head forging that was worn by being rubbed by the plastic sheathing of the wiring harness?
If new bushes are a very loose fit, then either the bushes are not correct dimensions, or the surface that they rub against has worn.

Yes, the plastic bushes were a loose fit, both to the sliders and to the stanchions. The bronze bush was proper.

 

[CHANGELING]

Excuse me for barking up the wrong tree but I thought that any problem with the back end ie, paralever pivot bearings etc was felt through the telelever like this.... Maybe check them, rear tyre pressures, big bearing,pre load settings and especially the rebound screw setting.