1150 Gearbox Noise!

[Grizzly]

Hi Guys,
My 2001(51) 1150GS now has over 120,000 miles on it & was running just like a new one - but a few days ago I noticed it was making a fair amount of noise from the gearbox when the clutch was released & the input shaft was rotating (in neutral). This whine/rumble noise switched on & off like a switch as the clutch was pulled in then released repeatedly. This was apparent even at start up with cold oil. Also, when moving off & accelerating through the box there was an intermittent noise - certainly noticable in the lower gears with no wind noise etc - which gave me the impression of a bearing about to collapse!
I decided to be sensible/cautious & put the bike off the road to investigate - better safe than sorry. Anyway, bike now has gearbox out(but not stripped). The clutch & input shaft splines show very little sign of wear - although never lubed since factory(I've owned the bike from new)
Anyway the point of this post is just to see what advice/experience any tossers can throw my way. The gearbox will be stripped in a few days and I'll see what this reveals - but I just wondered what similar problems anybody has had with 1150's?? - I have done searches but most info refers to 1100's with their taper bearing problem.
Also, is it worthwhile removing the flywheel to renew the crankshaft rear seal - or any other similar "opportunity" jobs?? - maybe Steptoe is the best man to answer that?

Cheers......................Grizzly

 

[Mac]

Without saying the obligatory 'they all do that', it must be obvious to you that it's got worse as you've had the bkie for so long.

There are a couple of threads floating around from people who have done a gearbox strip/change ( a good one has some frankly shocking hair styles on show ).

I wish you luck dude, it's something i dread doing but my '94 1100 has 60,000 on the clock and seems comfortably noisey, so i'm leaving it be for now.

 

[Steptoe]

1150 gearboxes don't have the problems that the 1100 has.

At that mileage I'd change all the bearings while it's apart, and check the gear selectors for wear.

I wouldn't touch the rear crank seal if it's not leaking. Just because a seal is brand new doesn't mean it won't leak

 

[Grizzly]

Box Now Opened

Thanks for replies chaps.
Mac my reason for not "ignoring" the noise was that if something like a bearing etc really gives up at speed it would possibly cause total lock-up of the back wheel which could not be cleared using the clutch - very scary
Also it's likely to cause a lot of damage to the box - terminal.
Agree with your thoughts on the crank seal Neil. I have now split the box - but left everything in place 'til I have time to do a methodical strip.
All parts inside look good but the bearing at the clutch end of the input shaft feel rough/noisy - which fits in perfectly with the symtoms, all other bearings feel great.
Neil, any advice on the grease/paste to use on the clutch splines?

Cheers...............Grizzly

 

[davegs]

spl;ines

You can buy the grease in a tube from your local friendly BM dealer about
£7.00.
dave gs

 

[Tsiklonaut]

Whot Steppers said,

if it's apart replace all the bearings if you can. Don't buy 'em from BM tho, they'll rip you off. Go to well equipped bearing shop dealing with NTN bearings and ask new bearings with the NTN part numbers (written on the old bearings).

I just replaced 2 bearings on the input shaft @ 100 000 miles (gearbox got VERY noisy) and got brand new NTN bearings 2 for 30$ while from BM they quoted me over 100$ for EXACLY the same two bearings just put into BMW OEM bag

Very easy to work on the R11xx gearbox using heat gun. Just make sure all the shimming stays like it was when you opened the box (don't misalign the old shimming settings when assembling gearbox back together!).

I only replaced the bearings on the input shafts here in an Australian bush on me 1100 since there just wasn't all the bearings available in the bearing shop. Anyways, together repairing cracked subframe it was 3 days of work in the Ozzy bush with robust tools only:

Oh yea, forgot to tell - prematurely fecked up bearings are "Made in Japan" on a German bike while the rest of the bike just works

Note the new bearing in the set and the new NTNs are "Made in Taiwan" btw

 

[(RIP) Bin Ridin]

120,000 miles? They don't make them like they used to! Certainly delightful to read good news like that.

Bearings are graded for some jobs, such as centrifugal separator spindles or turbochargers. Not sure if relevant for this job and if the ones B-em supply are graded / selected. Anyhow, I would try to buy a known brand (FAG, SKF) if poss.

Fascinating to see sealed bearings in an oil-bath gearbox, I think this was done to keep normal wear debris out.

Both my 1150 (40,000kms) and 1200 (75,000kms) rumble a bit with clutch out at idle in neutral. Nothing odd other than that noise. I worry a bit as to what amount of rumbling is ok and what is serious. No sign of particles in the oil, so at this stage I put it down to gear-lash and not bearings.

Bin

 

[Tsiklonaut]

120,000 miles? They don't make them like they used to! Certainly delightful to read good news like that.

Bearings are graded for some jobs, such as centrifugal separator spindles or turbochargers. Not sure if relevant for this job and if the ones B-em supply are graded / selected. Anyhow, I would try to buy a known brand (FAG, SKF) if poss.

Fascinating to see sealed bearings in an oil-bath gearbox, I think this was done to keep normal wear debris out.

Both my 1150 (40,000kms) and 1200 (75,000kms) rumble a bit with clutch out at idle in neutral. Nothing odd other than that noise. I worry a bit as to what amount of rumbling is ok and what is serious. No sign of particles in the oil, so at this stage I put it down to gear-lash and not bearings.

Bin

If I remember correctly they started to use sealed bearings mainly for noise reduction since WMB customers too much complained about gearbox noises (in combination with dry cluch all the noises are emphasized through clutch room's walls anyway - like a guitar's casing). Also M97 boxes on R1100s already don't have taper roller bearings used anymore, all are ball bearings since then.

But all in all normally (especially on M97 boxes and later) bearings should go well beyond 200K miles if preloads and slacks/backlashes are correclty shimmed on axles. I know one guy who has '94 R1100GS with 460 000 miles and replaced gearbox bearing set only once.

But I reckon using cheaper "Made in Japan" crap bearings wasn't particulary good choice by BMW arrogant engineers, indeed. When I get home in Europe I'll see if I can source some more decent bearings for the box. But for now I'm forced to carry on using the (OEM-approved) Asian cheesy parts...

 

[MattW]

Neil, any advice on the grease/paste to use on the clutch splines?

I read up on this and used Honda Moly 60 paste - seems to be the 'recommended' item on ADV etc - if that counts for anything . A tube (which will last for ever) cost about £7 from ebay.

Nice job Tsiklonaut

 

[Grizzly]

No Progress!!

Hi Guys,
Well, wasted an afternoon trying to get the three shafts to "slip" out of the gearbox front casing as per BMW manual tried heating casing with hot air gun, had whole assy in 100deg oven etc but of 2 shafts are in blind housings & they all need to move in unison to prevent jamming.
Tsiklonaut, nice info - but your bike is an 1100 - which is quite a bit different.
The bearings in my gearbox are from various manufacturers by the way - even at least one from England
Will have another go another day - got another nightshift in a couple of hours

Cheers....................Grizzly

 

[Decster]

Margus, really there was no need to pull in at the first available shed in the outback and strip yer bike to show us the inside of your gearbox...but welldone

 

[Steptoe]

Hi Guys,
Well, wasted an afternoon trying to get the three shafts to "slip" out of the gearbox front casing as per BMW manual tried heating casing with hot air gun, had whole assy in 100deg oven etc but of 2 shafts are in blind housings & they all need to move in unison to prevent jamming.
:

Plenty of heat and lever the three shafts a bit at a time.

No shims in the gearbox cover to worry about, the 1150 has the shafts shimmed.

 

[Grizzly]

Shafts Oot!!

Cheers Neil,
Bought a set of Pry Bars from Machine Mart today & with some well thought out packing for "heels" & to protect faces out they came
All bearings are super-smooth except the bearing at clutch end of the input shaft which id pretty rough/notchy & all gears, selector forks etc are like new.
Anybody know the thickness of a NEW clutch friction plate? There's loads of wear left on mine but I suppose i should put in a new one - if only to give a fresh set of splines?
Thanks for all help/comments, it should be straightforward now - I was getting really worried & started having nightmares that I'd had to buy a 1200

Cheers...........................Grizzly

 

[Grizzly]

Like a New Bike!!

Hi Guys,
Just an update. Got my bike back on the road last week.
Only replaced the input shaft bearings in the gearbox and most of the seals - everything else in the box - including the other four bearings - were like new, box now very smooth/quite.
I also replaced the clutch friction plate - not because of friction material thickness - it measured 6.0mm while the new plate was 6.7mm, not bad wear rate for 120k - I replaced it because there was some wear in the female spline which engages with the gearbox input shaft - not a lot, but 90%of the wear was on the clutch plate and maybe 10% on the input shaft so a new clutch plate eliminates almost all the wear.
Also changed all 4 throttle cables because I intended doing this in the winter anyway and access was easy during the gearbox job and wow! - what a feckin' difference - the best £100 I've spent on the bike I think.
By the way, I used Honda Moly60 paste for all splines as mentioned by MattW but is seems to be harder to find now as Honda have apparently stopped making it. You can, however still get it at the uk site below if anybody's interested:-
www.motocrossworld.com/site/

Thanks for all help/suggestions.................Grizzly