1150gs starting probs

ratty

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Hoping someone can shed some light on my starting issue?

Ok, 2004 twin spark 145k. When starting from cold it takes four to five attempts then eventually starts.

just fitted new spark plugs x4, new air filter, recent oil and filter and new stick coils (ouch!)

firstly, Throttle cables replaced last year and seated properly!

New starter motor 2013 have just fitted extra batt lead direct to starter in case of a starter drain.

Battery replaced with jel type 2011 still cranks fine

checked fuel and delivery fine / pump fine also.

when checking spark (with spare plugs) no spark till about the fourth or fifth attempt when she will start

all day and run fine. then the morning comes and back to square one :confused:

no rev counter bounce it acts normal and Rid all working fine.

wiring all checked under tank and no faults found.

any ideas anyone?

could it be the coils under the tank? i would of thought it would break down when hot not cold?

or the ignition censors/wiring (looks fine) behind front alt pulley. (but why does it run fine when
eventually started and never cut out)

Its the lack of spark that is confusing me.
 
Thanks but the motor spins over fine if it was lazy i would understand. It takes about five attempts of about 6/7 secs of cranking so batt is fine
 
Ive not seen it on the bike but ive had several times in cars where the battery will crank the engine over seemingly fine but wont fire. New/fresh battery fixed the issue both times. As you say, its unlikely to be the cause of your issue but such an easy thing to rule out I thought I would mention it.
 
Appreciate the feedback and will try jumping from my van unstarted of course! (The van that is).
R.
 
Hi Ratty,
I had the exact same symptoms a couple of years ago. I have a 2001 GS single spark.
We shipped our bike to San Francisco for a big tour and I had thoroughly checked and serviced the bike beforehand.
Looking back, the starting problem appeared in the UK on way to the shipper - but I thought it was just a fluke:rolleyes:

Anyway, in the U.S. we did 4000 miles and the bike never missed a beat - EXCEPT for the FIRST start EVERY day - and this happened with the bike covered in frost in Glacier N.P. OR in 40 degC heat in Death Valley - the starter would turn the engine over and over for a fairly lengthy time for several attempts, then burst into life - just like yours.

Now the battery was obviously fine as it put up with this punishment every day for 4 weeks, and the starter seemed good as it was spinning engine over great and, like you, after that first start of the day the bike would start instantly, every time, as soon as you touched the button.

Now, to try and cut a long story short, the bike was exactly the same on it's return to the UK.
I had replaced the original Valeo starter about 2 years before this trip with a (cheap) Valeo COPY from Ebay, Germany, which had been great, but I now had a nagging feeling that it can only be the starter causing some sort of excessive current draw - although it sounded fine:confused:

Fortunately, when I'd removed the original started 2 years before, I then stripped and overhauled it, using genuine Valeo parts from
www.euromotoelectrics.com , so I had a "good" starter sitting on the shelf, so it was easy to check this theory out!

So I change the starter (10 minutes) and BINGO - bike started INSTANTLY - EVERY time, and has done ever since:thumb

SO, I would be tempted to swop the starter with a known GOOD starter before delving any deeper- as you say yourself, the bike runs great and every other start is ok after the first - SO TRY THE STARTER FIRST:thumb


Cheers..........................Grizzly:beerjug:
 
Hi Ratty,
I had the exact same symptoms a couple of years ago. I have a 2001 GS single spark.
We shipped our bike to San Francisco for a big tour and I had thoroughly checked and serviced the bike beforehand.
Looking back, the starting problem appeared in the UK on way to the shipper - but I thought it was just a fluke:rolleyes:

Anyway, in the U.S. we did 4000 miles and the bike never missed a beat - EXCEPT for the FIRST start EVERY day - and this happened with the bike covered in frost in Glacier N.P. OR in 40 degC heat in Death Valley - the starter would turn the engine over and over for a fairly lengthy time for several attempts, then burst into life - just like yours.

Now the battery was obviously fine as it put up with this punishment every day for 4 weeks, and the starter seemed good as it was spinning engine over great and, like you, after that first start of the day the bike would start instantly, every time, as soon as you touched the button.

Now, to try and cut a long story short, the bike was exactly the same on it's return to the UK.
I had replaced the original Valeo starter about 2 years before this trip with a (cheap) Valeo COPY from Ebay, Germany, which had been great, but I now had a nagging feeling that it can only be the starter causing some sort of excessive current draw - although it sounded fine:confused:

Fortunately, when I'd removed the original started 2 years before, I then stripped and overhauled it, using genuine Valeo parts from
www.euromotoelectrics.com , so I had a "good" starter sitting on the shelf, so it was easy to check this theory out!

So I change the starter (10 minutes) and BINGO - bike started INSTANTLY - EVERY time, and has done ever since:thumb

SO, I would be tempted to swop the starter with a known GOOD starter before delving any deeper- as you say yourself, the bike runs great and every other start is ok after the first - SO TRY THE STARTER FIRST:thumb


Cheers..........................Grizzly:beerjug:
I didn't know your story, but i was going to suggest a starter strip to the op.

I think my own starter is begging for the exact same thing. Hence my thinking!
 
Cheers Grizzly, I too replaced my original starter with a German one at about £50/60 in 2013 iirc. Did at any time did you check for initial sparking or lack of? My original was fooked but not with this problem. So thought the extra booster cable I fitted direct from the battery would help! Sooooo,
Am gonna go with your recommendation and try and find someone local to be nice to.
Feedback Mucho appreciated
Ratty.
 
Nope, didn't do any spark tests etc. As we were on a big trip, and the bike was running great, I just hoped it wouldn't get any worse - and it didn't:clap
To be honest, speaking to folk in the U.S., they all tended to start blaming high percentages ethanol in the petrol - so I started to look for ethanol-free gas stations. So that theory pulled me away from testing or trying anything else - plus lack of time and tools etc.
Once back home bike was exactly the same asin the States soI wasbacktomy first suspect- the starter:thumb

Cheers.......................Grizzly:beerjug:

PS....I stripped and overhauled the problem starter after I'd changed it and didn't really find anything untoward:confused: so I now have it on the shelf as spare - although I've only run it unloaded off a battery, not tested it starting a bike yet!!!
 
Nope, didn't do any spark tests etc. As we were on a big trip, and the bike was running great, I just hoped it wouldn't get any worse - and it didn't:clap
To be honest, speaking to folk in the U.S., they all tended to start blaming high percentages ethanol in the petrol - so I started to look for ethanol-free gas stations. So that theory pulled me away from testing or trying anything else - plus lack of time and tools etc.
Once back home bike was exactly the same asin the States soI wasbacktomy first suspect- the starter:thumb

Cheers.......................Grizzly:beerjug:

PS....I stripped and overhauled the problem starter after I'd changed it and didn't really find anything untoward:confused: so I now have it on the shelf as spare - although I've only run it unloaded off a battery, not tested it starting a bike yet!!!

For future reference: is it the case that the `dodgy` starter motor may spin the engine fast enough but takes too much current to power the ignition etc?
Cheers
 
Don't know. I can only assume that it's something like that. All I can do is detail the symptoms I had - which match Ratty's - and say that replacing the starter cured it, totally.

Strangely, on the 1150, if the starter pulls the voltage down too far then the clock in the RID usually resets to 0:00 time - this has happened recently to me due to the battery (Motobatt) nearing the end of it's useful life - and battery replaced today.

But, when I had the same problem as Ratty, with the FIRST START of the day the starter turned the engine over fairly briskly - but didn't start for several lengthy cranking's - but I don't remember the clock ever resetting:confused:

So the starter is doing something during the first start to starve the ignition circuit but not causing the clock to reset to zero but when my battery was weak/old recently the starter turned engine very slowly - but started ok although often causing clock to reset to zero!

Now we're probably ALL confused

Cheers............Grizzly:beerjug:
 
Don't know. I can only assume that it's something like that. All I can do is detail the symptoms I had - which match Ratty's - and say that replacing the starter cured it, totally.

Strangely, on the 1150, if the starter pulls the voltage down too far then the clock in the RID usually resets to 0:00 time - this has happened recently to me due to the battery (Motobatt) nearing the end of it's useful life - and battery replaced today.

But, when I had the same problem as Ratty, with the FIRST START of the day the starter turned the engine over fairly briskly - but didn't start for several lengthy cranking's - but I don't remember the clock ever resetting:confused:

So the starter is doing something during the first start to starve the ignition circuit but not causing the clock to reset to zero but when my battery was weak/old recently the starter turned engine very slowly - but started ok although often causing clock to reset to zero!

Now we're probably ALL confused

Cheers............Grizzly:beerjug:

how long did your Motobatt last
 
how long did your Motobatt last

Can't remember for sure - just tend to change the battery when I notice it's strugging after sitting a week or more and losing a bit of stamina - that's the battery- not me:rob
I've had my 1150 from new so I know it's had the original(exide?), then an Odyssey, then the Motobatt - and I've now fitted another Motobatt.

So, an 09/2001 bike and it's "used" 3 batteries in 15+ years, so that's roughly 5+ years each. Bear in mind I change it before it becomes a serious problem - especially if I've bigger trips ahead. The battery I've just removed would have lasted a while longer when using often once worst of winter is passed - but it's done now so all good again:thumb


Cheers.................Grizzly:beerjug:
 
Interesting about your starter Grizzly, I replaced my Valeo last year with a not too cheap & shabby copy from these guys:

http://www.woodauto.com/Unit.aspx?Man=VALEO&Ref=D6RA75.

The original was getting really slow but this one's been fine so far (10k miles), however, I think it's time to pull the finger out now and get the Valeo refreshed and back on...I'm also using a Motobatt :nenau
 
Ratty, Below is the first and last post in a two-year saga to work out how to get my R1150 Twin Spark to start quickly. Here is the link to the whole (long) thread.

There were a lot of false starts, but it turns out that all Oilheads, especially the twin-sparks, are very voltage sensitive during starting. Anything that makes the battery voltage dip at the Motronic, coils, or fuel injectors can cause a delay.

RB

roger 04 rt said:
roger 04 rt said:
August 8, 2013
When I tested an R1200 GSW the other day, one of the improvements is that cold the bike seemed to start like, er, er, vroom. My 04RT is more like er, er er, er, er, er, vroom.
...
bike runs great except the slow first-start-of-the-day. I've GS-911ed all the sensors, looked at the LC-1 AFR charts, nothing seem to be wrong and the Motronic seems to be computing reasonable first injection times.
...
Any thoughts in how to get my bike to start faster 1st time in the morning? Er, Er Vroom!

August 24, 2015
Two years later, my '04 R1150RT (dual spark) now starts in about 1 second after sitting overnight and in about half to three-quarters of a second once the engine has warmed up (>40C). The final pieces of the puzzle were wiring the stick coils through a relay, directly to the battery (last month); and replacing the starter (last week). I’ve made it to Er, Er, Vroom!

Since it seems I'm at the end of this project finally and have learned a lot about what it takes to get the dual-spark 1150 to start quickly, I want to summarize the various improvements and repairs that I’ve made to reach the present state.

1) The Motronic, injectors and stick coils are voltage sensitive and the Motronic MA 2.4 doesn't fully compensate for low voltage. I experimented a lot by powering the electronics separately and the bike always started well when I did. A good battery, good starter and properly powered stick coils are all key.

--Odyssey PC-680: My battery had been chronically undercharged due to short trips, the 1150RT's alternator being a lower voltage than the PC680's spec, and my use of a Battery Tender Jr. with low voltage output. The battery was successfully rejuvenated by discharging and recharging 5 times, the BT Jr. was replaced with an AGM charger and I boosted the alternator output with the addition of an internal diode. I also modified the Kisan Signal Minder Flasher so that there was no key-off current drain on the battery.

--The stick coils were powered from the key switch and its contact resistance seems to have increased over the years. Later model dual-spark bikes power the stick coils with their own relay, called Load Relay II. Recently I added a relay and rewired the stick-coils (and while I was at it the secondary coil too) directly to +12V through the relay. It improved starting, idling quality and (surprisingly) top-end smoothness.

--The planetary gear cover inside my starter had fallen onto the armature a couple times causing serious internal arcing. I replaced the cover and the starter seemed fine but after fixing everything else in this summary, I got to the point where some starts were still slow and I knew it was related to the starting dip in the +12V. It seemed there must be excessive draw from the starter some of the time, causing the voltage dip and upsetting the Motronic, injectors and coils. After replacing it the motor spins faster, and quieter during starting and the bike starts very quickly whether cold or hot.

—To idle well in cold weather immediately after starting, the alternator needs to start charging the battery ASAP. I noticed from GS-911 logs that the alternator sometimes would take up to half a minute to start charging the battery. During that time, voltage at the injectors could be less than 12 volts, resulting in a lean, rough idle. This is caused by a much slower injector turn-on time at the lower voltage. The alternator starting current is supplied by the Batt/Alt bulb. By replacing the stock 1.7W annunciator bulb in Batt/Alt with the 3W bulb from the High Beam annunciator, the alternator always starts immediately and cold-idle is smoother.

2) All 4 spark plugs need to fire well for a quick start.

--Both stick coils were found to be sub-par and although the bike ran well, replacing them improved starting and idling quality, as well as top-end smoothness.

--The lower plugs seem to foul easily and although I didn't notice it while riding, fresh lower plugs made a difference to starting and cold idling. I've gone up in the heat range on the lower plugs to try and keep them cleaner.

3) The Hot Idle Speed, TPS and Fast Idle Lever need to be adjusted correctly for best starting.

—The BMW procedure for setting the Fast Idle Lever results in the throttle being opened about 4 degrees when the Fast Idle Lever is in the mid-detent position. Mine was at about 1.92 degrees, and many I’ve seen in GS-911 logs are lower, some as low as 0.64 degrees. Although the bike will start with that little throttle, 3-4 degrees open leads to faster starting. The adjuster for the fast idle lever ran to the end of the threads at a little over 2 degrees so a spacer was manufactured to sit in the bottom of the ferrule & adjuster to add adjustment range. After trial and error, 3-3.5 degrees when the Lever is in the mid-dent leads to a fast start but not too high a warm-up idle speed.

—Oddly, but confirmed on several bikes, if the Hot Idle Speed is set above 1100 RPM, the cold-start enrichment with the Fast Idle Lever OFF is too lean. This is because there is more air entering than expected at closed throttle while Open Loop. By reducing Hot Idle to 1100 RPM, the bike’s Cold Start AFR is slightly richer.

—TPS: Although a longer topic, I realized along the way that the closed throttle voltage expected by the Motronic is 340 mV. It was also discovered that the infamous zero=zero procedure results in the throttle being opened too far. The correct zero degree voltage is 250 mV.

Summary
Although everything on the list above contributed improvement, I found the most important were: 1) a fully charged, properly conditioned battery; 2) a starter that didn’t glitch the battery voltage badly, 3) separately powered stick coils and 4) good spark plugs. Although many in the forum helped I want to especially thank DR, GS Addict and terryofperry who provided valuable advice on debugging, starters and AGM batteries.
 
Starter update

Well its good news!!! :D Borrowed a starter off a friends 1150 a well used one and she fired up within

two revolutions :D :thumby:

So a big thanx to Grizzly for sharing the same symptoms :beerjug:

Roger, Thanx for your input although my head was hurting after reading through your helpful post.:thumb2

So now i can go to the Draggon rally in Feb and know she will start in the freezing morning :D

Not to keen on getting another German starter so any other recommendations for a replacement new one?

will rebuild the old one as a spare later on.

Thanx to everyone who contributed :thumby:

Ratty.
 
That's great news Ratty - glad your sorted:clap

If you do overhaul your original starter there's a great write-up on here by the late MikeP on a starter strip & rebuild........................

www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php/207984-Starter-Strip

If you need parts/kits then, as mentioned before, these guys are great and give great service to UK from Colorado:thumb.......

www.euromotoelectrics.com


Enjoy the Dragon........................Grizzly:beerjug:
 
Starter update

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131512541024?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

So this is what i bought! they all seem to only give 12 months warranty so i choose a mid price range one.

She starts up from cold in around three revolutions so happy daze for now!

Now the old starter (around three years old) upon inspection had a fooked bearing so the shaft must of

rattled itself into a spin! probably shorting out either side of magnets sapping all the volts that should of

gone towards the coils.

A strip down is on the cards eventually.

Hmm! Three year old German bearings where probably Chinese shite!!!! :D
 


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