20% bonus courtesy of the Donald ?

botus

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needed fuel for my old GS that was only meant to get 95 Octane - fed up thinking BP 97 (& all other super unleaded stuff has gone downhill even though its meant to have far lower Ethanol junk fuel in there), of late I have been having a very similar experience (its runs a bit rough low down and drinks like a fish) with any of the 95, 97, and 99 octane fuels from shell esso and bp - an issue we've had ever since ethanol infected fuels were mandated in 2020 - don't forget the user manual doesn't mention ethanol for BM bikes of this era.....

today I tried a tank of Esso 99 - as I rode off the forecourt its running better than it has for 6+ years - three short rides later its not my imagination - its way better - pondering how - I realise I can simply check for one possible driver... look to see if the ethanol death fuel joke 20% loss in economy is there on this tank full

easy enough for two years I'm doing a daily gentle run where I can't get it above 48.7mpg
reset the trip, do the same trip and the tank full that's running well - is currently delivering 58.9 mpg !!!!

so has Donald run everyone out of the death fuel additive ?
 
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I always put the better grade fuel petrol or diesel in all my vehicles. I’ve never had issues with any of them running “ rough “.
 
I realised how they got away with the silliness, and maybe why some just think the bike is getting old / needs a service / or pointlessly needs a new TPS
this recalcitrant running has been a growing issue since Ethanol infected fuels were first mandated in the UK - when they first started the theft, we only had 5% junk in 2020, then in 2022 std fuel changed to 10%

I remember my bike always did 52mpg unless you were hard on it - ride the way signs say it did 56mpg - but now it doesn't matter how you ride it struggles to get 47 to 48 mpg
going ultra slow and trying to keep under 3k rpm used to get 60+mpg on the computer now it only gets you 49.5

Looking on the GSA twin cam that was showing my average was 46mpg and I can't ride that hard at the minute as the clutch is letting go over 7k - it was nearly full so I only managed to get 9 liters of good fuel in there yesterday but even that got the average to jump to 49

is anyone aware it uses more energy from planting the crop to filling the tank with Ethanol than we can get back from burning it - so whilst sold as planet saving lies - its really only ever been about theft - and of course its using up farm land for non-food production - again all intentionally pushing up the theft, because ultimately you won't be eating soon...
 
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Pictures below are all European BMW tank labels - note no mention of Ethanol in the early days and the translation back to USA AKI rating was incorrect - they are subtracting 6 points off the number not the 4 it should be ???

Pre Ethanol fuels - 2007 air cooled Hex head R1200 with knock sensors
(Note incorrect use by Europeans / BMW using "Super unleaded" to refer to normal good quality 95 Octane Unleaded )

White Text Font Number Diagram



Pre Ethanol fuels - 2010 higher tuned TwinCam R1200 with knock sensors. These have a two stage map like the K1300's, going 10%-15% quicker on =>98 Super Unleaded
(Note at the time the use of the "Premium Plus" naming where they meant Super Unleaded 98)

Text Font Number Diagram Screenshot



Pre Ethanol fuels - 2011 K1600 no Knock sensors
(Note again the incorrect use of the term "Super Unleaded" - they mean to say Premium, aka high quality, and not inferring the use of High octane fuel)
no longer mentions emergency fuelling options as there are no Knock Senors on the K16 at this point

White Text Font Diagram Number



Ethanol ready 2019 label for a K1600 in Europe it should just say High quality 95 Octane
this should translate for USA as 91 Octane - I would never run a K1600 on USA 89 regardless of what the label says (unless driving at high altitude)

White Text Font Number Screenshot



Interesting now they put the knock sensors on the 2023 K1600 you get the emergency fueling option back

White Text Font Number Diagram



less inaccurate information re the AKI needed Current 2025 K1600 user manual

the requirements didn't change, the engines didn't change and the fuel didn't change - as 90.3 AKI = 95 RON - the change to 90 AKI is heading towards the 91 the manual should say (a smidge safe is better than insufficient, shame 14 years down the line they still can't type the correct number in the USA)


Image
 
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this conspiracy twaddle needs punting to the appropriate section @Paul G (BHT)

facts are facts - you may not understand them, but its all real

these bikes were not designed to use Ethanol,
they don't run correctly on Ethanol,
they don't run efficiently on Ethanol,
Ethanol is not good for the engine
Ethanol production as we do it around the world today is bad for the environment
The effect is a planet damaging Tax on the people
 
not sure why I didn't think when Wessie had a moment on Thursday - some of the facts helping prove I'm not making things up - On a car forum today many owner's with the same car as her indoors, are just noticing theirs playing up with a misfire at low speed... I just gave this info for them,

The AFR (air fuel ratio - the weight of air to petrol) changes as you add more Ethanol, because

Petrol at lambda 1 (where its burning all the fuel in ideal conditions) needs an AFR of 14.7: 1
Ethanol joke fuel has an AFR of just 9.1: 1

Thus on vehicles that don't know what's going on, the more Ethanol you mix in your real Petrol the weaker the mixture, till it stumbles.

Later engine management systems attempt to take all this into account - ideally using Wideband CAT sensors that are AFR sensing - rather than earlier guess it if lucky lambda sensors.
When you have 10% Ethanol your engine needs to adapt to an AFR of 14.1: 1 (note now allowing up to 15% under the latest changes)

The effect of the the wrong AFR tends to be noticed under light loads / steady throttle conditions, because acceleration brings enrichment that combats the problem. And as WOT (wide open throttle) has never been a part of the emission Regs one should note many engines push things to 12.1: 1 as its not usually held there often, and it calms things down - reducing temps and resisting knock.

Unlike the cars, who've had it for at least 25 years. BMW Motorrad have not used wideband sensing nor MAP sensors. Instead allowing Ricardo with the LC bikes to keep Tantalum CAT sensors, allegedly as Ricardo think bikes and MAP sensors won't cope. A distinct view not shared by Honda and Ducati who use them successfully. BMW Motorrad mostly got away with it until Sept 2025 brought us Euro5+ And 2026 Model year bikes like the R1300GS now suffer an unpleasant surging on a steady throttle - the mostly unknown engine management update in March 2026 hasn't helped.

Benefits of tantalum-based sensors over earlier designs:
    • Hysteresis-Free Sensing: Earlier switching sensors suffer from hysteresis (lag in readings), causing a delay in feedback to the engine computer. Tantalum arrays provide accurate, real-time data.
    • Ultra-Fast Response Times: Tantalum thin-films exhibit extremely favorable hydride formation kinetics, which can achieve sub-second response times—vastly outpacing traditional, ceramic-based oxygen sensors.
    • Massive Sensing Range: Standard zirconia sensors are effectively "narrow-band" (only switching efficiently between rich and lean mixtures around λ = 1), tantalum-alloy sensors provide a stable, linear read-out across a larger range of gas concentrations.
    • Exceptional Stability & Toughness: Traditional lambda sensors are highly susceptible to "poisoning" from trace airborne compounds, silicone, and exhaust byproducts, leading to premature failure. Tantalum layers are mechanically robust and highly stable, maintaining structural integrity in harsh, high-temperature environments.

What we all need, Wideband O₂ Sensors and MAP Engine Management:

Wideband O₂ sensors and Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensing form the core of active, closed-loop engine management. They allow an Engine Control Unit (ECU) to dynamically calculate air density and adjust fueling in real-time. In contrast, tantalum "catalytic sensor technology" is an advanced materials concept primarily used for detecting trace hydrogen in materials science, fiber-optics, or as capacitors in ECU circuit boards—not for measuring automotive exhaust
    • How it Works: The MAP sensor measures manifold vacuum/pressure to calculate engine load, while the wideband O₂ sensor measures unburned oxygen in the exhaust to output a precise, linear Air-Fuel Ratio (AFR).
    • Purpose: The ECU uses this data to map exactly how much fuel and ignition timing the engine needs at any given load point. Widebands allow for closed-loop tuning for optimal performance and efficiency, handling AFRs from 6:1 to beyond 20:1.
 
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you may not understand them, but its all real

Botus is the Red Queen.

Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.'

I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
 
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sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
ignorance is bliss - except when its running like a pig, read, or get someone to explain to you what it says in post #7
 
Botus is the Red Queen.
He does tend to over analyse a lot of things on the technical side.
Is he typing all that info himself or is it just copy and paste.
I gave up trying to understand some of it.
I agree about the 10% ethanol fuel making bikes run badly. My nearly 30 year old TLs don't like if at all. They cough and splutter and cut out. They are pretty good on super E5 fuel though considering the basic fuel injection they have.
One has covered 96.000 miles from new.
My GSA runs nicer on super fuel too. I've always run it on that.
It now has almost 159.000 miles on it. The injectors etc have never been touched. It still has the original TPS on the bike. I had one fuel pump failure at a little under 100.000 miles.
Botus, you do seem to spend an awful lot of your spare time trying to fix problems on these old tractor engines that really don't matter too much.
If you want a perfectly smooth running bike buy something newer. I love my 20 year old plodder.
 
not sure why I didn't think when Wessie had a moment on Thursday - some of the facts helping prove I'm not making things up - On a car forum today many owner's with the same car as her indoors, are just noticing theirs playing up with a misfire at low speed... I just gave this info for them,

The AFR (air fuel ratio - the weight of air to petrol) changes as you add more Ethanol, because

Petrol at lambda 1 (where its burning all the fuel in ideal conditions) needs an AFR of 14.7: 1
Ethanol joke fuel has an AFR of just 9.1: 1

Thus on vehicles that don't know what's going on, the more Ethanol you mix in your real Petrol the weaker the mixture, till it stumbles.

Later engine management systems attempt to take all this into account - ideally using Wideband CAT sensors that are AFR sensing - rather than earlier guess it if lucky lambda sensors.
When you have 10% Ethanol your engine needs to adapt to an AFR of 14.1: 1 (note now allowing up to 15% under the latest changes)

The effect of the the wrong AFR tends to be noticed under light loads / steady throttle conditions, because acceleration brings enrichment that combats the problem. And as WOT (wide open throttle) has never been a part of the emission Regs one should note many engines push things to 12.1: 1 as its not usually held there often, and it calms things down - reducing temps and resisting knock.

Unlike the cars, who've had it for at least 25 years. BMW Motorrad have not used wideband sensing nor MAP sensors. Instead allowing Ricardo with the LC bikes to keep Tantalum CAT sensors, allegedly as Ricardo think bikes and MAP sensors won't cope. A distinct view not shared by Honda and Ducati who use them successfully. BMW Motorrad mostly got away with it until Sept 2025 brought us Euro5+ And 2026 Model year bikes like the R1300GS now suffer an unpleasant surging on a steady throttle - the mostly unknown engine management update in March 2026 hasn't helped.

Benefits of tantalum-based sensors over earlier designs:
    • Hysteresis-Free Sensing: Earlier switching sensors suffer from hysteresis (lag in readings), causing a delay in feedback to the engine computer. Tantalum arrays provide accurate, real-time data.
    • Ultra-Fast Response Times: Tantalum thin-films exhibit extremely favorable hydride formation kinetics, which can achieve sub-second response times—vastly outpacing traditional, ceramic-based oxygen sensors.
    • Massive Sensing Range: Standard zirconia sensors are effectively "narrow-band" (only switching efficiently between rich and lean mixtures around λ = 1), tantalum-alloy sensors provide a stable, linear read-out across a larger range of gas concentrations.
    • Exceptional Stability & Toughness: Traditional lambda sensors are highly susceptible to "poisoning" from trace airborne compounds, silicone, and exhaust byproducts, leading to premature failure. Tantalum layers are mechanically robust and highly stable, maintaining structural integrity in harsh, high-temperature environments.

What we all need, Wideband O₂ Sensors and MAP Engine Management:

Wideband O₂ sensors and Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensing form the core of active, closed-loop engine management. They allow an Engine Control Unit (ECU) to dynamically calculate air density and adjust fueling in real-time. In contrast, tantalum "catalytic sensor technology" is an advanced materials concept primarily used for detecting trace hydrogen in materials science, fiber-optics, or as capacitors in ECU circuit boards—not for measuring automotive exhaust
    • How it Works: The MAP sensor measures manifold vacuum/pressure to calculate engine load, while the wideband O₂ sensor measures unburned oxygen in the exhaust to output a precise, linear Air-Fuel Ratio (AFR).
    • Purpose: The ECU uses this data to map exactly how much fuel and ignition timing the engine needs at any given load point. Widebands allow for closed-loop tuning for optimal performance and efficiency, handling AFRs from 6:1 to beyond 20:1.
MAF sensors would be better ‘cos they properly measure intake air density.
 
not sure why I didn't think when Wessie had a moment on Thursday - some of the facts helping prove I'm not making things up - On a car forum today many owner's with the same car as her indoors, are just noticing theirs playing up with a misfire at low speed... I just gave this info for them,

The AFR (air fuel ratio - the weight of air to petrol) changes as you add more Ethanol, because

Petrol at lambda 1 (where its burning all the fuel in ideal conditions) needs an AFR of 14.7: 1
Ethanol joke fuel has an AFR of just 9.1: 1

Thus on vehicles that don't know what's going on, the more Ethanol you mix in your real Petrol the weaker the mixture, till it stumbles.

Later engine management systems attempt to take all this into account - ideally using Wideband CAT sensors that are AFR sensing - rather than earlier guess it if lucky lambda sensors.
When you have 10% Ethanol your engine needs to adapt to an AFR of 14.1: 1 (note now allowing up to 15% under the latest changes)

The effect of the the wrong AFR tends to be noticed under light loads / steady throttle conditions, because acceleration brings enrichment that combats the problem. And as WOT (wide open throttle) has never been a part of the emission Regs one should note many engines push things to 12.1: 1 as its not usually held there often, and it calms things down - reducing temps and resisting knock.

Unlike the cars, who've had it for at least 25 years. BMW Motorrad have not used wideband sensing nor MAP sensors. Instead allowing Ricardo with the LC bikes to keep Tantalum CAT sensors, allegedly as Ricardo think bikes and MAP sensors won't cope. A distinct view not shared by Honda and Ducati who use them successfully. BMW Motorrad mostly got away with it until Sept 2025 brought us Euro5+ And 2026 Model year bikes like the R1300GS now suffer an unpleasant surging on a steady throttle - the mostly unknown engine management update in March 2026 hasn't helped.

Benefits of tantalum-based sensors over earlier designs:
    • Hysteresis-Free Sensing: Earlier switching sensors suffer from hysteresis (lag in readings), causing a delay in feedback to the engine computer. Tantalum arrays provide accurate, real-time data.
    • Ultra-Fast Response Times: Tantalum thin-films exhibit extremely favorable hydride formation kinetics, which can achieve sub-second response times—vastly outpacing traditional, ceramic-based oxygen sensors.
    • Massive Sensing Range: Standard zirconia sensors are effectively "narrow-band" (only switching efficiently between rich and lean mixtures around λ = 1), tantalum-alloy sensors provide a stable, linear read-out across a larger range of gas concentrations.
    • Exceptional Stability & Toughness: Traditional lambda sensors are highly susceptible to "poisoning" from trace airborne compounds, silicone, and exhaust byproducts, leading to premature failure. Tantalum layers are mechanically robust and highly stable, maintaining structural integrity in harsh, high-temperature environments.

What we all need, Wideband O₂ Sensors and MAP Engine Management:

Wideband O₂ sensors and Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensing form the core of active, closed-loop engine management. They allow an Engine Control Unit (ECU) to dynamically calculate air density and adjust fueling in real-time. In contrast, tantalum "catalytic sensor technology" is an advanced materials concept primarily used for detecting trace hydrogen in materials science, fiber-optics, or as capacitors in ECU circuit boards—not for measuring automotive exhaust
    • How it Works: The MAP sensor measures manifold vacuum/pressure to calculate engine load, while the wideband O₂ sensor measures unburned oxygen in the exhaust to output a precise, linear Air-Fuel Ratio (AFR).
    • Purpose: The ECU uses this data to map exactly how much fuel and ignition timing the engine needs at any given load point. Widebands allow for closed-loop tuning for optimal performance and efficiency, handling AFRs from 6:1 to beyond 20:1.
I thought wot was part of the drive by test for noise testing; around 2 and a half to three thousand rpm or something along those lines; if i'am not mistaken.
 
Is he typing all that info himself…..

or is it just copy and paste.

If you were facing a firing squad, where the command “Fire!” depended on you giving (or not) the correct answer to that question, what would you say? Screw your eyes up real tight and guess….

“Ready….. Aim……”
 
MAF sensors would be better ‘cos they properly measure intake air density.

cars used basic MAF in the 70s, by the 90s hot wire MAF worked light years better - but MAP is even more sophisticated
 
as our wallets are emptied funding the destruction of the planet, to amuse the incompetent whims of a few brain dead elites with illegal wars. Our freedoms to mention it day after day eroded with outrageous new laws, and our rights and liberties deliberately being stolen. All I hear is lemmings clapping and cheering that life has never been better... So in the midst of the insanity, short term between one fake traffic jam to the next bit of collapsing road infrastructure, I want an engine that operates bearably between 3 to 45mph
 


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