A "which one" post

[Scaramanga]

Firstly what a great mine of information - I have spent some considerable time trawling through the various postings trying to find out what gps would best fit my needs and whilst I am nearly there can anyone answer my final questions please?

I would like a GPS for the following uses:

1. General touring - mostly through Europe (France, Spain, Italy) and increasingly Morocco. Would be great if this could work out the route (& re-calc if I take a wrong touring) and download a map of a specific area (say the Alps) for when I am there. It would also be useful if I could enter specific addresses (say the hotel) to avoid riding around all night (as often seems the case!)
2. Amateur rallying (not Dakar, more along the lines of the Tuareg)

This has led me to a shortlist of either the Garmin V or 276 - I prefer the V (mainly because of cost!) but my one concern is the memory size at 19mb....is this going to be enough? When you hear of cards holding 128/256mb this seems very small! How much can you hold on that? I am not going to need detailed street maps for everywhere in Europe - I usually plan before I go away where to stop for the night e.g. Madrid and as such would only need street maps for these locations. Is that going to be possible with a memory of this size?

For my second use, I would need to enter various waypoints so either seems fine on this front.

I like the idea of the 276 because of the screen size and the larger memory, but would this be using a hammer to crack a nut? I like the V because of cost but it also looks relatively simple to operate - important as this is my first gps.

If neither will fit my purpose please suggest - my shortlist was only from reading.

Many thanks for any posts!

 

[Jon]

Scaramanga,

I Borrowed a mates Etrex Legend to find out what they were all about and then nabbed a Garmin V Delux kit for £199 when Staples got rid of their stock (bonus )

If you use the latest version of European City Select with autorouting enabled, you only get this much of the UK on;

 

[Jon]

Obviously you've still got your basemap, so you'll have main roads etc when you fall off the edge of the detailed pink stuff.

For Morocco I used WorldMap, and to be honest, I don't think there's anything better out there. Also, you won't need autorouting in Morocco as you'll no doubt already know, there are only so many roads going places

For comparison, if you take autorouting off the latest version of European City Select, you can get this much of the UK on;

 

[Jon]

If you go back to the previous version of European City Select and don't use Autorouting, you can get most of the South/South East of the UK on.

Now I've had it for 6 months, I want more memory capacity. If I had the dosh now, I'd look at a 276/276c, but that's my personal preference over the latest Garmin/BMW unit.

Don't forget when you cost up the unit, to add the software you're going to need, eg European City Select. Luckily, mine came with the V Delux bundle, with a free upgrade to the next version.

So if I buy again, I don't need to factor in the extra software.

If price is stopping you buying the latest unit (it is me, among other things ), have you thought about a 2nd hand StreetPilot III ?

 

[Jon]

Last post before PanEuro jumps in with his encylopedic knowledge

I see you're in London. If you want to meet up and have a play with my Garmin V, let me know.

In fact, if you come along to the Ace Cafe meet on 1st Sunday of each month, you'll probably get the chance to see a few different units side by side for comparison.

HTH



Jon

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

Streetpilot 3 for you would be perfect - one on the board here for 400-ish now

If you had anymore money and I'd have said a 2610.

 

[Wikkus]

...FWIW, I too own a GPS V with Mapsource Euro City Select 6.00. It's been all round Northern Europe and been very reliable.

The 19MB RAM is an issue; we recently did UK to Barcelona and back and this necessitated carting my (fortunately small and lightweight) laptop with us for map, route and track management. The required number of mapsets totalled about 80MB; doesn't sound like much, however, when you have to squirt those 80,000,000+ bytes down a serial cable at 9600bps, it's painfully slow. 18MB of mapdata takes, typically, 35minutes to upload.


The last issue I have after two years GPS V usage is with the processor speed (or lack of it). It can be very frustrating to miss a turning 'cause the unit is "Off route, recalculating" just as you go sailing past the turn-off...

If money were no object, I'd probably have a 2660 as it's got the whole of Europe (or Murrica if you prefer) pre-loaded onto its 1GB micro-drive; be interesting to see how these hold up in terms of ruggedness and reliability compared to their earlier solid-state bretheren.

The 2660 also has dead-reckoning which is a bit tasty if your route takes you through Alpine tunnels and the like or anywhere else where GPS reception might be affected ("urban canyons" also). Not heard anyone seriously diss the touch-screen interface, either. This last point is significant as it's the only real difference between the BMW Motorrad Navigator II and a standard 2610 -- added buttons replace the touch-screen gubbins -- and last time I checked, the BMW-badged offering was significantly more expensive than a plain old 2610.

I've seen 2610s with Euro basemaps available for as little as £688...

The 276C is an excellent device and is generally overlooked in favour of the newer, swankier, more feature-packed 26xx series. It's most likely to be my next upgrade as it retails for under £600, new, it has a much, much faster processor than my V and a lovely, big, crisp, clear, colour display that was much more readable in bright sunlight than the Streetpilot III+ or my V. The other big advantage it has is USB connectivity plus removable data cards.

Anyhoo, just my £0.02.

HTH.

Rik.

 

[Jon]

The 19MB RAM is an issue
~ carting my laptop with us for map, route and track management.
~ however, when you have to squirt those bytes down a serial cable at 9600bps, it's painfully slow.
18MB of mapdata takes, typically, 35minutes to upload.

~ the processor speed (or lack of it).
The 276C is an excellent device ~ it has a much, much faster processor than my V and a lovely, big, crisp, clear, colour display that was much more readable in bright sunlight than the Streetpilot III+ or my V. The other big advantage it has is USB connectivity plus removable data cards.
Rik.

I think Riks put it a better way than me - altho I'm not so sure about the 2660 with a microdrive.

 

[Jon]

This thread has got me thinking and drooling, but I'm not sure about something.

What memory does the 276c come with, or are you into buying datacards straight away? If so, sizes/prices?



Jon

 

[Scaramanga]

I think its memory cards (garmin) straight away - regarding prices no idea!

 

[PanEuropean]

Scaramanga:

As you can see from reading the responses to this post, and from reading the discussions in other posts, it's not really a "cut and dried" decision making process.

Before I give you my own opinion on what GPSR I think would best suit your needs, let me help you through the decision making model.

A) You stated in your first post that you wanted autorouting ability. That narrows the field down quite a bit. There are currently three "pure automotive" GPSRs that do autorouting, the SP III, SP 26xx series, and the new Quest. There is a marine/automotive model (with emphasis on marine) that also will do autorouting, that is the 276. Several of the recently released crop of handheld units will also do autorouting.

B) If you are based in the UK and plan to tour to the countries and regions you list in your post at the top of this thread, you will need a LOT of memory capacity. 256 megs is probably the least memory you should consider. This narrows the field down quite a bit, leaving only the SP III, SP 26xx series, and the 276. In other words, it eliminates the fixed memory size handhelds and the Quest, leaving only the units that use removable data cards for your consideration.

The suggestion that was made above about not including autorouting data, in order to be able to squeeze more map segments into a data load, is inappropriate. It's sort of like saying that you want to buy a 4 wheel drive truck to go off-roading, but you're going to limit yourself to 2 wheel drive mode only in order to save fuel. So, forget that strategy. The suggestion to use out of date maps because they take up less memory space is also inappropriate. If you are using a GPS for navigation, you want to have the most current mapping product, to use anything else is futile (and frustrating).

C) Finally, you have to think about future growth of the map products. The current version of the map products you will be using may fit into 256 megs, but the next release sure won't. Map products tend to grow by about 30% in size each version, as more data is added. You have two choices now - purchase a GPSR that has a maximum data chip size of 256 megs, and plan to purchase an additional 256 meg chip in the future to provide the additional storage you will need, or purchase a GPSR that uses CF card memory, and purchase a (less expensive) 512 meg or 1 gig CF card to hold the additional mapping data.

Based on what you stated... that you will be touring as far afield as France, Spain, Italy, and the Alps - I foresee that you will need about 512 megs of map storage today, and probably about a gigabyte of map storage in the future. Morocco is a bit of a red herring - there is not much map data for that country, and what there is takes up very little space. But, unless you plan to air freight your moto there, you have a lot of ground to cover on the continent before you get to Morocco.

My suggestion is that you buy a SP 2610, and then buy either a 512 meg or 1 gig CF card before you set off on your first big tour. Don't buy a 2620 (that is the 2610 with the hard drive inside), it is not the best choice for either motorcyclists or for folks who are computer literate. The 2650, which is the 2610 with an internal gyro for DR capability in tunnels, etc., is only an appropriate choice if you are a super-serious GPS enthusiast, and you have deep pockets. It will cost you as much as the BMW Navigator II. Remember you have to pay to have it installed. It also won't work on a moto unless you have an electronic speedometer (not cable driven).

You could perhaps be happy with a GPSR that has a lot less memory (perhaps as little as 60 megs), as long as you don't mind carrying a laptop computer with you to reload the GPSR as you move from region to region.

The idea of purchasing a used SP III is worth considering, if you are watching your budget. BUT: 1) Be sure it comes with the current version of CityNavigator, which is version 6, 2) be sure it has a minimum size 128 meg memory chip, and, 3) be sure it is a European basemap unit, not an American one. If it does not meet those three specs, don't even consider it, you would be better off buying something new, even if it was a new SP III.

Don't even think of buying the GPS V, it is functionally obsolete for anyone who plans to tour outside of their own county in the British Isles.

PanEuropean

 

[Jon]

The suggestion that was made above about not including autorouting data, in order to be able to squeeze more map segments into a data load, is inappropriate. It's sort of like saying that you want to buy a 4 wheel drive truck to go off-roading, but you're going to limit yourself to 2 wheel drive mode only in order to save fuel.
PanEuropean

Pan, not sure I agree with that (each to their own). I think a lot of people say autorouting, but don't necessarily want/need "turn by turn".

When I haven't got autorouting on my V, which lets face it, is most of the time due to the memory constraints , if you find the address/place you want and then select 'goto' and 'offroad', you get a direct line on your screen to your destination. It's not hard to look at the detail on the map and work out which roads you need to go down.

The other alternative is to create the route(s) on mapsource you need/think you might need and then download it to your GPS.

I think 'turn by turn' is handy if a) you're really lost, b) aren't confident (with either gps and/or map) & c) are in a hurry. And we shouldn't be rushing anywhere on a bike really should we

I think part of it is being on a bike and wanting to explore/decide where I want to go, rather than have something tell me where to go.

Now I've typed all this I can see rational for both choices and that the V, while a great entry level GPS that got me started (especially at the price I paid), is just too small in the memory stakes for me now - because of where I live (near'ish Heathrow) I can be riding off the detailed map in a couple of hours in the UK, less with autorouting enabled

However, on the recent trip to Morocco, I had all of Spain that we'd be riding thru AND Morocco, cos it's only covered by WorldMap on my V, without routing. Autorouting wouldn't have helped, as the coverge of Spain on ECS 6, particularly of Seville, isn't detailed enough, ie no road shown where the hotel is..........

However, I would assume the detail will obviously get better in time (he hopes).

So, forget all the above

Money no object I'd have autorouting in the background for those "I just want to get there" moments.

Anyway, two questions for you;

With the 276c are you limited to Garmins data cards only? Biggest seems to be 256 on the Aspid site. Or can you use others?

Have you ever used/seen anyone use a screen scratch remover like the one here. Got a slight mark right in the middle of my screen, probably from putting it in a pocket when I got off the bike. It's not a problem, but if I can lose it, so much the better.

Ta - you're a mine of info

 

[Scaramanga]

Thanks for all your comments and time - I think I am almost there!

I have had a look at the 2610 and it seems a cool unit - best price I have found is £676 via Sportextreme. I have also found SP3 Deluxe models for £457 (Euro basemap model) via Aspidshop including 128mb card, City Navigator v6, USB programmer etc. This seems a great deal esp compared to used prices on ebay and whilst I don't want to base my decision totally on price, it does seem a great offer.

However I have received two comments that worry me:

1. Its a "street only" GPS
2. Its now outdated

The second comment I can accept because sure technology does getter with time, and when compared to 26xx yes it will be "outdated" but the first comment is a concern when I want to use it offroad. Is it going to be totally unsuitable?

Lastly will a SP3 Deluxe/+ call it what you will take a 256mb card?

Thanks for your continued patience!

 

[Taff]

The idea of purchasing a used SP III is worth considering, if you are watching your budget BUT 1) Be sure it comes with the current version of CityNavigator, which is version 6.

I am a GPS virgin, so please forgive my ignorance, but what happens if it is not Version 6 ? As I understood it, CityNavigator is a separate CD. Would it not be the case of just buying the latest version CD, or is technology not that simple. If it is that simple, does anyone here know how much are they ? The more expensive models look impressive, but in all honestly I could not justify the higher cost.

Scaramanga, can you tell me where you saw the Street Pilot 3 with Aspid for £457. I have looked on their website and the cheapest SP3 I can find is £581.

 

[Greg Masters]

If you go for an SPIII or 26xx with European basemap, it does include the entire African continent (inc Morocco) to a standard not much different to WorldMap.

Whereas you cannot autoroute with WorldMap, the SPIII and 26xx will autoroute on the basemap.

Greg

 

[Scaramanga]

EJ - hope this link works:

http://www.aspidshop.com/export/store/product_info.php?cPath=3_7_8&products_id=17

 

[Taff]

Thank you Scaramanga - just the job.

 

[PanEuropean]

For sure, there are no "right or wrong" answers, just carefully thought out opinions, and Scaramanga getting quite a few of those here, which is good.

About the idea of a SP III - that is worth considering. On the positive side, a new SP III, with current maps and one 128 meg card, costs £457 according to Scaramanga's most recent post, above. If a second 128 meg chip was obtained (perhaps from someone who is upgrading to a 256 meg chip), that would provide quite a bit of memory capacity. FWIW I rode all over Europe in 2001 and 2002 with exactly that setup - a SP III with two 128 meg chips - and I had no problems. But, it was essential that I carried a laptop with me for reloading the chips as I moved around. I would have carried a laptop anyway, because I need email access on the road, so no big deal to me. But, schlepping a computer around on a moto tour might be an unacceptable PITA for someone else who has no other need for a computer when on holidays.

The negatives associated with getting a SP III are that it has limited memory capacity (small data cards), and it does not recalculate routes as quickly as the SP 26xx series. Yes, you can put 256 meg data cards in a SP III, but these are the small, proprietary Garmin format cards, and they are expensive. Due to processor speed limitations, the SP III does not do some of the tricks that the SP 26xx units do, such as custom route preferences and custom avoids.

For everyone's information - the Garmin staff HATE the small, proprietary data cards, and all of them were greatly relieved when the SP 26xx came out, using the CF card format that users can buy at any store. The reason Garmin brought out the proprietary data card format in the first place was because when they introduced it (way back in the mid 1990's), there were no commercial off the shelf flash data cards available, so Garmin had to make their own. The only reason they have kept that format for the 276 is because the 276 is primarily a marine unit, and marine maps don't change very often. The target market for the 276 is marine users upgrading from older Garmin GPSRs, and those folks already have a library of maps (on the small chips) that they would want to use on the new GPSR. Anyway, I digress...

Jon made some fair comments in his most recent post (replying to mine). But, I honestly believe that if we analyze why we moto-riders buy these GPSRs, the primary answer is convenience. We buy these things so that when we need autorouting or turn by turn guidance, we have it available. This is especially important when we have made a little diversion down an interesting road, or into an interesting looking city, and now we want to get back on the route to our destination with a minimum of fuss.

If we want that capability - autorouting on demand - available to us when we do long tours (without bringing a laptop along), we need to have huge quantities of map storage capacity available to keep the cartographic data on. So that pretty much limits the choice - for Scaramanga's application, as he defined it in his original post at the top of this thread - to the SP 26xx family, which uses the inexpensive CF cards, which have phenomenal storage capacity (meaning, you can put all of Europe and all of North America on one card, if you so desire).

Within the SP 26xx family, the only one I recommend for moto use is the 2610. Folks who read this BB should NOT be considering the 2620 with the internal hard drive. The 2620 is not an "enhanced" 2610, it is a "dumbed down" 2610 designed for users who do not have a computer, or do not know how to use a computer. Note also that the 2610 does not come with the MapSource application, or with the CityNavigator CD (the maps are all pre-installed in the 2620, so why ship a CD?), so it is not possible to view the maps on your PC and plan all your great rides on your PC. Besides, a small hard drive is not exactly the best thing to have inside a GPSR that will be used on a dual-sport moto. Maybe I could get away with it on my ST1100, but only because my ST never leaves pavement. Even then, the effect of hitting a pothole with a motorcycle vs. the effect of hitting the same pothole with a car needs to be considered. The GPSR mounted on the moto is going to get a heck of a lot more shock from the pothole than the same GPSR mounted in a car that hits the same pothole.

The 276C is a very tempting alternative, but it is greatly handicapped by the fact that it uses the small Garmin proprietary data cards, and these are a) expensive, and b) limited to 256 megs of capacity. I do admit, though, that the screen display on the 276 is stunning. This summer, I am riding with a 296 all the time (aviation model of the 276), and I quite like it.

The newest automotive unit - the Quest - might be worth looking at, but no-one has seen one live and in person yet, so it would be premature to talk about it. For international riding, though, it might not be the greatest choice, because it is limited to about 120 megs (more or less) of fixed, non-expandable internal memory. So this means we're back to the "bring a laptop with you" issue for really long distance, international touring. FYI, the Quest appears to be the replacement for the GPS V.

PanEuropean

PS to Mr. Evans: If you have a Garmin GPSR with a previous version of the cartographic software (e.g. CN Europe version 5, and version 6 is the current version), you can purchase an upgrade for about USD $150. AFIK the upgrade needs to be purchased by the same person who registered the original (previous) version, so if you have purchased a second-hand GPSR, you will need to organize things with the vendor so that they will help you with this. It should not be a problem in the case of a private sale if you are on friendly terms with the vendor.

Anyone who is planning on purchasing a used GPSR - e.g. a SP III - would be best advised to negotiate with the seller so that the GPSR is sold with the current version of the map software on it. In other words, negotiate a price for the used GPSR that INCLUDES having the vendor update the map software before the transfer of ownership is done. This will keep everything nice and simple for the purchaser, and most important, ensure that the purchaser can compare "apples to apples" when comparing the price of the used GPSR against the price of an identical new one.

 

[Taff]

Pan European. Top job - really appreciated. Thanks

 

[Jon]

The 276C is a very tempting alternative, but it is greatly handicapped by the fact that it uses the small Garmin proprietary data cards, and these are a) expensive, and b) limited to 256 megs of capacity.
PanEuropean

Bugger Cheers Pan

No info on the screen mark repairing stuff then?



Jon