ABS V non-ABS

[Fanum]

I can accept ABS will extend stopping distances but enable me to remain in control when it is slippy but not when in such ideal conditions.

So the article as reported above was lying??? Or is Jamie Witham just a crap rider?????

I suspect people who say "of course I went for ABS, it's an insurance policy and an aid to safety" may not have tried the BMW ABS sustem in anger. Go out and try a few e-stops then let us know what you think.

Show me any postings here that decribe how a working ABS system caused a crash.....I don't remember any at all.


I do however remember many many posts saying how it had helped save a crash, and some potentially very serious ones...including one that I reported several years ago that would have seen me and the missus under a MPV if I hadn't have had ABS.

Yes that feeling when it 'frees up' is unnerving at first, but on balance, and going by what has been reported here, ABS has prevented many many more slides and accidents than it's caused

 

[JayGee]

So the article as reported above was lying??? Or is Jamie Witham just a crap rider?????

But he wasn't testing a BMW ABS system was he?

Show me any postings here that decribe how a working ABS system caused a crash.....I don't remember any at all.

Read what I wrote, I never said ABS has caused a crash. I accept it might save me from a crash on wet slippy roads. What I don't like is, it is some times fooled into activating too soon on a dry road. Even over rumble strips.

I do however remember many many posts saying how it had helped save a crash, and some potentially very serious ones...including one that I reported several years ago that would have seen me and the missus under a MPV if I hadn't have had ABS.

Yes, I know and I believe them, I said it will be a difficult decision when I come to change the bike (ABS or not).

Yes that feeling when it 'frees up' is unnerving at first, but on balance, and going by what has been reported here, ABS has prevented many many more slides and accidents than it's caused

Possibly, we'll never know. However a front wheel lock up doesn't necessarily mean crash, it's recoverable in a straight line provided you act soon enough and release the brake.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are disadvantages as well as benefits, at the end of the day it's a personal decision complicated by the over complex design of the BMW served system that is about to be dropped by BMW and replaced by an improved system (prove if you need it that the current BMW ABS system is not perfect)

 

[John Armstrong]

proof if you need it that the current BMW ABS system is not perfect

Not wanting to be argumentative but if I was working for their PR I'd say it was continuing product improvement, which many wouldn't argue against

 

[luckylucian]

JayGee, good comment about the ABS releasing brakes as you slow down.

It is recognised that a greater brake pressure can be applied at higher speeds than at lower speeds ie the same brake force applied at 70mph (with no skid) if applied at 30mph would cause the tyre to skid. Have you watched Touring Car racing, where with ABS they just roll into the car in front. Most people brake like this but in reverse, slow at first to allow the weight to transfer to the front without locking the tyre, then applying more pressure as they slow down, ideal conditions to produce a skid if done hamfistedly.

ABS works but it is subject to the laws of physics, given the mass of a GS travelling at a certain speed with a certain amount of tyre grip there is a finite distance required to stop, if you haven't got that distance, you'll need to swerve a bit!

IMHO the ABS allows you to brake harder, and earlier than you would without ABS, your brain calculates a stop point from this, but then as the bike slows, the amount of braking than can occur without the wheel locking up becomes less, hence the ABS "seems" to let off the brakes, combine this with the closeness of the object which caused the emergency and it can become brown pants time!

 

[JayGee]

...

IMHO the ABS allows you to brake harder, and earlier than you would without ABS, your brain calculates a stop point from this, but then as the bike slows, the amount of braking than can occur without the wheel locking up becomes less, hence the ABS "seems" to let off the brakes, combine this with the closeness of the object which caused the emergency and it can become brown pants time!

Yep, I agree but I suspect the thing that makes the system release isn't always the fact that the wheel is about to lock. It's the electronic brain being fooled into thinking lock-up is imminent. This is because the rear wheel is lifting momentarily so there is a difference in wheel rotation speeds which is (I think) how the system detects imminent lock-up. This fools the brain into letting off the brake untill the wheel speeds are matched again. This problem is probably worse on a GS with greater suspension travel and happens way before a front wheel lock-up in the dry and even over rumble strips with reasonably heavy braking.

 

[Dellis]

ABS is not a problem and I agree that it makes sense for the road but I can't get on with the servo idea or linked brakes hence I decided that non ABS was for me.

Dave

 

[JohnC]

Hmm, makes me think. So you buy a ABS bike and decide you don't like the ABS, so turn it off. One day you lock the front wheel braking in heavy rain and have a big off and then insurance claim.

I wonder if the insurance investigator would decide contributary negligence on your part, by de-activating a safety feature? It wouldn't surprise me. They could argue that the accident wouldn't have happened if the ABS had been active...

And how would they know?

 

[JohnC]

I've no idea what Engineers experience is but you can take it from me (and many others) that the BMW ABS system is certainly not without its drawbacks. I have a 12GS with ABS and during a near miss in the dry on a well surfaced road I had to do an emergency stop or run into the back of the car. You know how time seems to pass very slowly in these situations and you seem to have time to think a lot in a fraction of a second? Well, I remember thinking "just keep squeezing that brake lever, I've got ABS, let it worry about locking up", and that's what I did. I was horrified when a few feet from the car the brakes felt llike they'd let go and I had to swerve violently to avoid the car. I don't honestly know how near the rear wheel was to coming of the road but in my opinion the brakes released way too early.

I then went out on a quiet road to try a few e-stops and noticed the same thing. No pulsing of the lever, no obvious sign of ABS activation apart from the brakes let off and I had the sensation of zooming forward (I think I was just not slowing as quickly as I had been). I've since had the brakes tested and all is in order, they are designed that way apparently.

I admit the roads were dry, my tyres were good and I was braking on good grippy tarmac but the brakes released way before a stoppie and took for ever to come back on. I know I would never brake so hard in the wet, with a pillion and luggage if I didn't have ABS but this effect in the dry is really not nice!.

I can accept ABS will extend stopping distances but enable me to remain in control when it is slippy but not when in such ideal conditions. The system is certainly not as good as I had thought it to be when I bought the bike and whether to have it on my next bike will be a tough decision.

I suspect people who say "of course I went for ABS, it's an insurance policy and an aid to safety" may not have tried the BMW ABS sustem in anger. Go out and try a few e-stops then let us know what you think.

Well (1) If you're doing a stoppie you're not braking efficiently, so that's out the window, and (2) if the ABS triggered it was because you were about to lock the wheel and would have (a) skidded, or (b) washed out and possibly crashed anyway. And btw, were perhaps too near the car in front?

 

[TheJoker]

Right... ABS, once again. For most people... 98% of you (scientific number ) on the road, the ABS will make sure you don't spill your cup of tea when you're out riding...

...but .... (there's always one)

If you're riding vigorously on a less than perfect road the BMW ABS system (at least on my ex 2004 R1200GS) was not able to deal with it. The worst feeling for me is the complete loss of braking when the system kicks in. This is IMFO too much and therefore causes unrest in my riding. This is most noticeable when you're riding on really bad roads (less than B-roads), especially when Farmer Jones has been down it with his tractor. It's mainly the potholes that upset the system, not the low grip. When the system detects the low grip due to the pothole, it'll completely shut off the brakes, leaving you to jerk backwards as the bike had suddenly accelerated. Saucer sized eyes and white knuckles as the result. Not good. All IMFO, of course.

The BMW ABS is also worstened (is that a word!? ) by the snatchy servo, which unfortunately you can't disable.

All tihs left me distrusting the ABS and I went for non-ABS on the K1200R.

Just so you understand; When I do pootle around the ABS has helped me, but I still feel uncomfortable using it; braking distance in this case is purely academic.

 

[Malcvtr]

Is it just me, or have I read a fair few tales on this list of the horrors of residual braking when this complicated system goes wrong? Couple that with the times when it gets confused over difficult surfaces and you're left with a reasonable choice: ABS - take it or leave it. I chose to leave it and have my braking as a known quantity at all times. And before people start banging on about unpredictable situations and last-second grabs at handfuls of brake, I would suggest you take an advanced riding course.

I'm with Engineer on this, in case you haven't guessed.

 

[buckles]

I've no idea what Engineers experience is but you can take it from me (and many others) that the BMW ABS system is certainly not without its drawbacks. I have a 12GS with ABS and during a near miss in the dry on a well surfaced road I had to do an emergency stop or run into the back of the car. You know how time seems to pass very slowly in these situations and you seem to have time to think a lot in a fraction of a second? Well, I remember thinking "just keep squeezing that brake lever, I've got ABS, let it worry about locking up", and that's what I did. I was horrified when a few feet from the car the brakes felt llike they'd let go and I had to swerve violently to avoid the car. I don't honestly know how near the rear wheel was to coming of the road but in my opinion the brakes released way too early.

You were going to fast to stop and are now trying to blame the ABS at least you should have learned something, a lot of people expect too much me thinks. . It gives more time to react, nano seconds but in a situation they all count.

 

[Fanum]

I chose to leave it and have my braking as a known quantity at all times.

I think you're missing the point of ABS though.

Yes, non-abs may be closer to being a 'known quantity at all times' and there are times (undulating road surface, metal grids etc) where it can cause a bit of a sphincter clenching moment, but that's not the issue for me.

Brakes wit consistant performance are onlyrelevant on consistant surfaces....most of us ride on wet roads, muddy roads, dry roads, roads with strips of grass down the middle, sand or gravel strewn roads, and yes, roads with ripples or gratings that can upset ABS.

On the whole though, ABS (whether BWM or Triumph, it's irrelevant) has the ability to prevent more big pant fillers and t-boned smidsys than non-abs systems......

Malcvtr- Smug comments about taking advanced courses are bollox, and you know it.....no advanced course in the world can prevent every incident that you'll encounter on the road and on balance, in the real world, I'd stake my life it's prevented more damage than it's caused.

The BMW ABS is also worstened (is that a word!? ) by the snatchy servo,

My turn to patronise now....if you think it's snatchy, time you learnt some proper control......brakes aren't an on or off switch, they have degrees in between. Either that or you should get them checked...my Evo's are nice and smooooooth

 

[JohnC]

Show me any postings here that decribe how a working ABS system caused a crash.....I don't remember any at all.

And we wait, and wait, and wait.............

 

[JohnC]

I've no idea what Engineers experience is but you can take it from me (and many others)

Where are these many others? Post links or names please. You've thousands to choose from.

This is because the rear wheel is lifting momentarily so there is a difference in wheel rotation speeds which is (I think) how the system detects imminent lock-up. This fools the brain into letting off the brake untill the wheel speeds are matched again.

You think? 'Lifting momentarily'??, <-snigger-> Oh aye. Complete and utter rubbish. The rear ABS does not affect the front ABS and vice versa, simple and end of. If the front ABS detects a lock up it releases the front, if the rear detects a lock up it releases the rear. Are you actually trying to say that if you lock up the rear wheel that the front brakes let go!!!!!!!!!!!!. Get real ffs.

 

[Engineer]

It is weird how some people get so worked up over the ABS issue, particularly when anyone dares to be a heretic (in their view) and point out it's imperfections - they become very blinkered and refuse to standback and take a dispassionate viewpoint. I suspect that there is a big helping of cognitive dissonance going on, but I'm an Engineer not a psychologist so won't try to explain why.

 

[JayGee]

..
You think? 'Lifting momentarily'??, <-snigger-> Oh aye. Complete and utter rubbish. The rear ABS does not affect the front ABS and vice versa, simple and end of. If the front ABS detects a lock up it releases the front, if the rear detects a lock up it releases the rear. Are you actually trying to say that if you lock up the rear wheel that the front brakes let go!!!!!!!!!!!!. Get real ffs.

I suggest you think a bit more deaply about this. Let me help you:-
The locking of a wheel is detected by the difference in speeds of the two wheels, if the rear is about to lift then that wheel will tend to turn faster and the system will think the front is about to lock and realease it.
I'm not a hundred percent sure this is how it works but those are the symptoms.

If you know different then tell us- otherwise keep the sarcy comments to yourself.

 

[JohnC]

I'm not a hundred percent sure this is how it works but those are the symptoms.

Deaply?? Well you should certainly be 100% sure before you get so 'deaply' involved, so... some more sarcy comments for you it is then. I'll write (not think) even more s.l.o.w.l.y. The front A.N.D rear wheels (the round things) and ABS (the electronic trickery) work independently o.f e.a.c.h o.t.h.e.r, therefore you are talking U.T.T.E.R p1$h. Next.

 

[JohnC]

It is weird how some people get so worked up over the ABS issue, particularly when anyone dares to be a heretic (in their view) and point out it's imperfections - they become very blinkered and refuse to standback and take a dispassionate viewpoint. I suspect that there is a big helping of cognitive dissonance going on, but I'm an Engineer not a psychologist so won't try to explain why.

Send me your sound engineering thesis then

 

[JayGee]

...
You were going to fast to stop and are now trying to blame the ABS at least you should have learned something, a lot of people expect too much me thinks. . It gives more time to react, nano seconds but in a situation they all count.

Yes I was but I didn't expect ABS to make it worse!
I don't think expecting ABS to be better than non-ABS is much to expect do you?
I did learn something and that's to go out and try a few e-stops, I suggest you do the same and see what you think to what happens.

Seems a lot of people on here don't like some of us pointing out that the ABS is not the magic stopper they thought it was. I accept it's very good in tricky, slippy situations but don't like it's effect on bumps, rumble strips etc, nor on good dry roads. As I said, it'll be a difficult decision whether to buy ABS on my next bike- so I'm not completely against it, I just don't think it could be done better.

 

[JohnC]

It's not a magic stopper for complete idiots! That's for sure