Black Forest Route Suggestions?

…..so got to Black Forest late on day two

And there I think we see the problem. Rasher, I believe starts in Oxford’ish. Whilst it’s not Folkestone, it’s a lot closer to Calais than north Wales. He arrived at the Black Forest ‘late’ on day two, but with admittedly a ‘late’ start on day one. Then a day riding riding around, gives three days and two days back is five days. The fellows from north Wales have just run out of days to get back, let alone get to the Black Forest. They are sort of day to a day and half short, unless they blitz chunks on the motorway.

As above, I’d lean towards the Morvan. We have done it in day from Avalllon (right at the top of the Morvan) to Calais, the train and then into London in a day, avoiding motorways (except the M20) taking only N and D roads. That was three or four bikes, me and some others from the forum. But, we started early and didn’t slouch about. Lunch was definitely on the hoof somewhere. I’ll have the exact tings somewhere in my little black book.

Likewise, the Ardennes is a great destination, closer still.

Or go back to part one of their idea. There is plenty of good riding around the area of the ‘ring. Germany is cheaper, too.
 
From all the suggestions/ideas/tips I have come up with the outline plan below:

Day 1 will be an early morning departure from Prestatyn, North Wales to Folkestone Eurotunnel (6 hours 'ish). Catching the 14:20 train on 10 September should see us leaving Calais at 16:30 local. A 3.5 hour ride time should see us in Reims for about 20:00. Ibis Reims overnight stop.

Day 2 departing Reims at a sensible hour and routing via Duoaumant Ossuary on the way into Verdun for lunch. Then routing direct to Seebach, our base for 3 nights. About 4.5 hours in the saddle today.

Days 3 & 4 taking in the routes & sights suggested by your posts above.

Day 5 departing Seebach after breakfast with a scenic route ride to Luxembourg for lunch. After lunch another scenic ride to Mons for an overnight stop in Ibis Mons.

Day 6 departing Mons after breakfast for a 2 hour ride to Calais Eurotunnel terminal. Late morning departure on the train. Arrive midday (time difference saving) and route back to North Wales to arrive early evening.

That's the cunning plan. Just looking at possible fuel/food stops enroute now together with places of interest we could visit.

A massive thanks to you all for your assistance, it has been greatly appreciated :beerjug:
 
Looking good, Houston.

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6 hours to the tunnel!!!

That makes for a brutal day, I think I have it bad - assuming little M25 traffic (Hah!) it is do-able in 2 hours if I get a move on, I allow 2.5 and if running on schedule fill up at the services about 15m before the tunnel, and skip them if running late - although last year I just splashed for the Flex Ticket....

....Which, looking at your schedule I would say is worth paying for, over a decade plus I have found roughly a 50/50 chance of your train being on time, and typically not running much more than @30 minutes late, but I have also had to wait a lot longer on several occasions - not a massive problem as I usually plan for a 4-5pm arrival at the end of day one, as you are looking at an 8PM finish if all goes well, I would suggest you pony up and jump the queue ;-)

Wth the flex you just go straight through customs ad can stop at a Flex building near the departure point, run in here and you can see the next train time(s) last year we had just missed one so had about 20 minutes to fill up, there is a good selection of sandwiches, pastries, cakes, crisps, fruit, drinks (hot and cold) etc so we sat and had a coffee and lunch, then grabbed a stash of goodies for later on.

If in a rush (next train due any minute) just keep your lids on, grab a load of stuff and then eat / drink on the train, leaving you refuelled and refreshed as you weigh anchor :-)

Reims is a good town, I have stayed here a few times:

https://www.logishotels.com/en/tarifs-et-disponibilites-chambre?id=471

Cheapish, with small pool (handy on those 30-40c days you can get going across france) and a big garage for the bikes - many bikermates assume every foreigner wants to steal their bike.

Lunch in Luxembourg - Esch-sur-sure or Vianden are my top picks, La Roche En Ardenne, and Bouillon are other decent spots, and all well worth trying to work into your route, further North Durbury is also good (but probably a bit out of the way for your direction of travel)


Lastly, as its winter and we are all clearly bored can you post up your routes when you have done them, so we can all say they are wrong and offer many different opinions. Thanks
 
6 hours to the tunnel!!!

That makes for a brutal day, I think I have it bad - assuming little M25 traffic (Hah!) it is do-able in 2 hours if I get a move on, I allow 2.5 and if running on schedule fill up at the services about 15m before the tunnel, and skip them if running late - although last year I just splashed for the Flex Ticket....

....Which, looking at your schedule I would say is worth paying for, over a decade plus I have found roughly a 50/50 chance of your train being on time, and typically not running much more than @30 minutes late, but I have also had to wait a lot longer on several occasions - not a massive problem as I usually plan for a 4-5pm arrival at the end of day one, as you are looking at an 8PM finish if all goes well, I would suggest you pony up and jump the queue ;-)

Wth the flex you just go straight through customs ad can stop at a Flex building near the departure point, run in here and you can see the next train time(s) last year we had just missed one so had about 20 minutes to fill up, there is a good selection of sandwiches, pastries, cakes, crisps, fruit, drinks (hot and cold) etc so we sat and had a coffee and lunch, then grabbed a stash of goodies for later on.

If in a rush (next train due any minute) just keep your lids on, grab a load of stuff and then eat / drink on the train, leaving you refuelled and refreshed as you weigh anchor :-)

Reims is a good town, I have stayed here a few times:

https://www.logishotels.com/en/tarifs-et-disponibilites-chambre?id=471

Cheapish, with small pool (handy on those 30-40c days you can get going across france) and a big garage for the bikes - many bikermates assume every foreigner wants to steal their bike.

Lunch in Luxembourg - Esch-sur-sure or Vianden are my top picks, La Roche En Ardenne, and Bouillon are other decent spots, and all well worth trying to work into your route, further North Durbury is also good (but probably a bit out of the way for your direction of travel)


Lastly, as its winter and we are all clearly bored can you post up your routes when you have done them, so we can all say they are wrong and offer many different opinions. Thanks

Thanks for the advice Rasher. 6 hours from North Wales to the tunnel is allowing for stops. We should make "good progress" leaving early on a Sunday morning so I'm hopeful we will have time to spare at the tunnel. The Flex ticket is a good shout and I'll bear that in mind.
We are all know it will be a "brutal on the bum" first day but it will hopefully, break the back of the route down.
We have booked the Ibis Hotel in Reims (before I seen your post) and Mons. Cheap & cheerful.
I'll plan to visit one of your suggested lunch stops in Luxembourg - thanks.
 
From all the suggestions/ideas/tips I have come up with the outline plan below:

Day 1 will be an early morning departure from Prestatyn, North Wales to Folkestone Eurotunnel (6 hours 'ish). Catching the 14:20 train on 10 September should see us leaving Calais at 16:30 local. A 3.5 hour ride time should see us in Reims for about 20:00. Ibis Reims overnight stop.

Day 2 departing Reims at a sensible hour and routing via Duoaumant Ossuary on the way into Verdun for lunch. Then routing direct to Seebach, our base for 3 nights. About 4.5 hours in the saddle today.

Days 3 & 4 taking in the routes & sights suggested by your posts above.

Day 5 departing Seebach after breakfast with a scenic route ride to Luxembourg for lunch. After lunch another scenic ride to Mons for an overnight stop in Ibis Mons.

Day 6 departing Mons after breakfast for a 2 hour ride to Calais Eurotunnel terminal. Late morning departure on the train. Arrive midday (time difference saving) and route back to North Wales to arrive early evening.

That's the cunning plan. Just looking at possible fuel/food stops enroute now together with places of interest we could visit.

A massive thanks to you all for your assistance, it has been greatly appreciated :beerjug:

Day 1 is too long, if you have a hold up you will be sunk

6-7 hours from N Wales to the Tunnel is far enough on UK roads and then another 2-3 hours to Reims.................simply too much (yes it can be done, but you will be knackered before the start of the holiday)
Get a Hotel near Folkstone

Or use P&O from Hull to Rotterdam, a much more sensible overnight option (4 hour afternoon ride to Hull, food and kip on the ferry & freshly off at 8am ...for a full day in Europe)
 
Day 1 is too long, if you have a hold up you will be sunk

6-7 hours from N Wales to the Tunnel is far enough on UK roads and then another 2-3 hours to Reims.................simply too much (yes it can be done, but you will be knackered before the start of the holiday)
Get a Hotel near Folkstone

Or use P&O from Hull to Rotterdam, a much more sensible overnight option (4 hour afternoon ride to Hull, food and kip on the ferry & freshly off at 8am ...for a full day in Europe)

It will end up being 6 hours or so, easily.
It always has been for me over the years and traffic is far more congested now.
Used to coffee and fuel stop near Birmingham, then Oxford services, then Clackett Lane.

I wouldn't overnight in this country though.
You'll lose too much of your next day pissing about with the crossing.
Get across on the day you set off and stop near the tunnel for your first night then have a full first holiday day in France.
Bit shitty and shifty , but very convenient, is Premier Classe at Coquelles with a short walk to the supermarket for their cafe diner thing, or there's one nearer Calais, as well as many better places of various types, or crack on just a bit and stop at St.Omer.
 
Always Hull to Rotterdam for me.
 
From all the suggestions/ideas/tips I have come up with the outline plan below:

Day 1 will be an early morning departure from Prestatyn, North Wales to Folkestone Eurotunnel (6 hours 'ish). Catching the 14:20 train on 10 September should see us leaving Calais at 16:30 local. A 3.5 hour ride time should see us in Reims for about 20:00. Ibis Reims overnight stop.

Day 2 departing Reims at a sensible hour and routing via Duoaumant Ossuary on the way into Verdun for lunch. Then routing direct to Seebach, our base for 3 nights. About 4.5 hours in the saddle today.

Days 3 & 4 taking in the routes & sights suggested by your posts above.

Day 5 departing Seebach after breakfast with a scenic route ride to Luxembourg for lunch. After lunch another scenic ride to Mons for an overnight stop in Ibis Mons.

Day 6 departing Mons after breakfast for a 2 hour ride to Calais Eurotunnel terminal. Late morning departure on the train. Arrive midday (time difference saving) and route back to North Wales to arrive early evening.

That's the cunning plan. Just looking at possible fuel/food stops enroute now together with places of interest we could visit.

A massive thanks to you all for your assistance, it has been greatly appreciated :beerjug:

I also think your Day 1 is too long. Any problems and you will be screwed.

You say you have 6 days - so presumably that's one week off work? Can you not squeeze out another day or two? Finish work on Friday evening and you technically have 9 days if you have a week ofF? Of course, I don't know you or your mate's work situations and other commitments. But personally I would try to add an extra day or two.

Day 1 then would be just getting from Wales to the tunnel. Either cross that afternoon/evening and stay somewhere nearby that day, or stay somewhere like the Premier Inn at Eureka Park and get an early train in the morning.

Either way, you could get a lot further than Reims on Day 2 (and Reims is a bit off route if you are heading for the Black Forest anyway). A 300 mile day is easily doable (Brussels, Like, Spa, Bitburg) - and takes you to Trier or to Bernkastel-Kues. Day 3 is an easy 150 mile direct run to Seeback, with plenty of time to add some lovely twisties and a nice lunch in, still get to your hotel early and chill with some beers.

Days 4 and 5 touring the Black Forest, Days 6 and 7 back home again...Day 7 could be long - maybe Mons to the tunnel then back to Wales again. Doesn't really matter though as you probably get home late if necessary.
 
It will end up being 6 hours or so, easily.
It always has been for me over the years and traffic is far more congested now.
Used to coffee and fuel stop near Birmingham, then Oxford services, then Clackett Lane.

I wouldn't overnight in this country though.
You'll lose too much of your next day pissing about with the crossing.
Get across on the day you set off and stop near the tunnel for your first night then have a full first holiday day in France.
Bit shitty and shifty , but very convenient, is Premier Classe at Coquelles with a short walk to the supermarket for their cafe diner thing, or there's one nearer Calais, as well as many better places of various types, or crack on just a bit and stop at St.Omer.

Chateau Tilques near to St Omer used to be a favourite of mine. Plenty of parking, indoor swimming pool and an excellent restaurant. 26 miles from the Calais Eurotunnel terminal. It's a little more upmarket than your typical French Formule One or Premier Classe hotels, but very nice if you want to treat yourself a little.
 
It will end up being 6 hours or so, easily.
It always has been for me over the years and traffic is far more congested now.
Used to coffee and fuel stop near Birmingham, then Oxford services, then Clackett Lane.

I wouldn't overnight in this country though.
You'll lose too much of your next day pissing about with the crossing.
Get across on the day you set off and stop near the tunnel for your first night then have a full first holiday day in France.
Bit shitty and shifty , but very convenient, is Premier Classe at Coquelles with a short walk to the supermarket for their cafe diner thing, or there's one nearer Calais, as well as many better places of various types, or crack on just a bit and stop at St.Omer.

From North Wales - Hull Rotterdam is best option
Straight across M62
No pissing about with Brum or M25 nonsense
 
The Hull / Rotterdam option would be the best for the OP's location in North Wales. For those further south the Harwich to Hook of Holland is also very good and gets you in even earlier at 0730 local time. Ferry is also much nicer, better cabins and a lot quieter. Big advantage for both options is overnight travel so less riding time. Obviously for those living in Kent or close, the tunnel will always be the quickest. I use both above ferries regularly.
Getting off the Harwich - Hook is very fast. As all bikes are loaded onto the lower truck deck below the main raised car desk your are the first off!
Also good thing about both directions with this one is the ferry departs at 2230 so latest check in is around 2100. That gives you plenty time to get to the ferry port. I think for Hull - Rotterdam you need to be there around 1900 latest.
 
The question is not so much whether bods say whether they would do it or not but whether the OP and his chums believe / know that they can do it.

It’s easy enough to do the sums, based on a train departing at 14:20, requiring a check-in at say 13:40 latest. OK, I know it’s possible to just roll up at the check-in and be on the train in 10 minutes but that rarely happens regularly; less so with a small group. It also assumes the train departs on time. The fully flexible tickets sees a big jump in price. They have also been of debatable value whist the service has been significantly reduced. But, more trains are running now, as demand post-Covid (whatever that means) has picked up.

Now count back from 13:40 to see what time to leave Prestatyn. The rough best journey time this morning, non-stop is five and a half hours to cover the 325 miles. That gives a minimum departure time from home of around 08:00. There will be, I guess, at least one fuel stop on route for the small party, say 30 minutes by the time they’ve all finished. That gives an 07:30 departure. Add in half an hour for buggering around somewhere along the line, gives an 07:00 departure from home. Anything earlier is just a bonus.

The 14:20 train takes 40 minutes to cross and say 10 minutes on arrival for the doors to open, wheels rolling, call it 15:10 plus one hour for the time difference, gives 16:10 on the move in France. The Calais exit is bang on the motorway, so no buggering around there.

Google, today, gives an estimated best journey time between Calais and Reims of around 180 miles in around three hours, non-stop. Earliest arrival in Reims therefore 19:10. Add in 30 minutes for a stop somewhere along the line, gives 19:40. Add in another 30 for buggering around at tolls, if one bod loses his ticket, drops his gloves or whatever *. This gives 20:10 as an arrival in Reims.

The OP has estimated 20:00. He knows him and his regular touring mates much better than us. He is happy with that.

Summary:

Total distance, Prestatyn to Reims 505 miles, the vast bulk of it on motorways.

Departure time: 07:00 UK time

Arrival time (OP’s estimate): 20:00 French time (one hour later than UK)

Corrected travelling time, allowing for some breaks and the Chunnel crossing (check-in, roll off and crossing): 12 hours after allowance for the one hour time difference.

It’s not impossible.

In reality, other than general tiredness and a bit of frustration, it probably wouldn’t matter if the bods arrived in Reims at 22:00 French time or even 00:00 as all they have to do is sleep. The next day is Reims to Seebach via Verdun. This is about 250 miles direct on the motorway, taking say four hours of riding. Add in two hours to visit the Ossuary and another hour for buggering about for fuel or whatever, gives a total of seven hours. This translates to a very modest departure time from their Reims hotel of 09:00 for an arrival in Seebach 16:00. Even a two hour swing on this, giving an arrival of 18:00 would not be totally unreasonable, giving a departure time from Reims of 11:00.

It’s all doable, if the OP believes / knows that it is. The maybe tight day is day one but, as the above shows, it all hinges on what time the leaves home and what realistic time he arrives in Reims. There is some slack in it, as the time to arrive in Reims can be later than 20:00. If he and his chums get stuck, then they can just pull off the motorway before Reims. It would make day two longer but they can skip Verdun or cut their cloth accordingly. It’s that simple.

We have corrected his original pipe dream of Prestatyn > Calais > ‘ring > Black Forest > Calais > Prestatyn with things to see and do along the way in six days, door to door. Whether he changes his plans to use a ferry, is another matter entirely. Lots of things can happen in the next nine months. It’s now all down to hi, his chums and fate.




* I’d suggest they each invest in a peage blipper, to save buggeration, when one bod loses his ticket, it gets soggy in the rain and their cash point card doesn’t work. See thread on this topic in the Travel section.
 
Don't forget you have to be at the tunnel one hour before your train. They can get pissy about this if its busy.

[I admit I skimmed all this before I typed that^^ Wapping has already touched on it]
 
The question is not so much whether bods say whether they would do it or not but whether the OP and his chums believe / know that they can do it.

It’s easy enough to do the sums, based on a train departing at 14:20, requiring a check-in at say 13:40 latest. OK, I know it’s possible to just roll up at the check-in and be on the train in 10 minutes but that rarely happens regularly; less so with a small group. It also assumes the train departs on time. The fully flexible tickets sees a big jump in price. They have also been of debatable value whist the service has been significantly reduced. But, more trains are running now, as demand post-Covid (whatever that means) has picked up.

Now count back from 13:40 to see what time to leave Prestatyn. The rough best journey time this morning, non-stop is five and a half hours to cover the 325 miles. That gives a minimum departure time from home of around 08:00. There will be, I guess, at least one fuel stop on route for the small party, say 30 minutes by the time they’ve all finished. That gives an 07:30 departure. Add in half an hour for buggering around somewhere along the line, gives an 07:00 departure from home. Anything earlier is just a bonus.

The 14:20 train takes 40 minutes to cross and say 10 minutes on arrival for the doors to open, wheels rolling, call it 15:10 plus one hour for the time difference, gives 16:10 on the move in France. The Calais exit is bang on the motorway, so no buggering around there.

Google, today, gives an estimated best journey time between Calais and Reims of around 180 miles in around three hours, non-stop. Earliest arrival in Reims therefore 19:10. Add in 30 minutes for a stop somewhere along the line, gives 19:40. Add in another 30 for buggering around at tolls, if one bod loses his ticket, drops his gloves or whatever *. This gives 20:10 as an arrival in Reims.

The OP has estimated 20:00. He knows him and his regular touring mates much better than us. He is happy with that.

Summary:

Total distance, Prestatyn to Reims 505 miles, the vast bulk of it on motorways.

Departure time: 07:00 UK time

Arrival time (OP’s estimate): 20:00 French time (one hour later than UK)

Corrected travelling time, allowing for some breaks and the Chunnel crossing (check-in, roll off and crossing): 12 hours after allowance for the one hour time difference.

It’s not impossible.

In reality, other than general tiredness and a bit of frustration, it probably wouldn’t matter if the bods arrived in Reims at 22:00 French time or even 00:00 as all they have to do is sleep. The next day is Reims to Seebach via Verdun. This is about 250 miles direct on the motorway, taking say four hours of riding. Add in two hours to visit the Ossuary and another hour for buggering about for fuel or whatever, gives a total of seven hours. This translates to a very modest departure time from their Reims hotel of 09:00 for an arrival in Seebach 16:00. Even a two hour swing on this, giving an arrival of 18:00 would not be totally unreasonable, giving a departure time from Reims of 11:00.

It’s all doable, if the OP believes / knows that it is. The maybe tight day is day one but, as the above shows, it all hinges on what time the leaves home and what realistic time he arrives in Reims. There is some slack in it, as the time to arrive in Reims can be later than 20:00. If he and his chums get stuck, then they can just pull off the motorway before Reims. It would make day two longer but they can skip Verdun or cut their cloth accordingly. It’s that simple.

We have corrected his original pipe dream of Prestatyn > Calais > ‘ring > Black Forest > Calais > Prestatyn with things to see and do along the way in six days, door to door. It’s now all down to him and his chums.




* I’d suggest they each invest in a peage blipper, to save buggeration, when one bod loses his ticket, it gets soggy in the rain and their cash point card doesn’t work. See thread on this topic in the Travel section.

As I said
Day 1 for the OP bod is too long and fraught with danger and frustration
Doable - but something I would rather avoid on holiday
If they want to do it the cheapest way, maybe
They should fit tacho’s to bikes and enforce rest stops if bods want to ride excessively long days
We have all done it in the folly of youth
 


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