Emoto
Registered user
sproggy said:If Loctite would sort it, wouldn't BM use Loctite at the factory when assembling the bikes? Or recommend that their dealers do so when servicing them?
sproggy said:
You misunderstand. I did not claim that the GS was a dirtbike, nor did I claim that the axle pinch bolts loosened up by riding in the dirt (they don't, usually), nor did I claim that the triple clamp bolts were axle bolts. What I was trying to explain was that broader perspective and experience can allay many fears, and I picked dirtbilke ownership because I knew of a good example. The reason I selected the example I did is because those dirtbike pinch bolts are similar in spacing and material and force application, so can serve as an example of fasteners that must be torqued and then (without pause) retorqued; in other words not after riding, but during assembly/checking. edited to add: By this, I mean torque bolt # 1, then bolt #2, then bolt #1 again and then bolt #2 again. This may be the missing piece of the puzzle as to why people are finding them loose, apart from possible (conjecture) flawed assembly process at the factory.
sproggy said:
What about common sense? One of the things about getting any new bike, and particularly one that is an entirely new model or contains many newly designed parts is the "getting to know you" process. This happens for the owners as well as the manufacturers. Yes, most things should be in the manual, particularly the factory service manual, but there is always some assumption of a certain level of knowledge in the selection of what to include. Adopting a rigid stance about it helps nobody.
sproggy said:
Motorcycles are not appliances. Especially twins. Perhaps you expect your bike to be like a dishwasher or clothes dryer, but it isn't. And, the argument can be made that there are many things that go gradually out of adjustment and need to be put back to spec at regular intervals, and this is merely another one of those things. No gnashing of teeth required. Do you adjust your valves every 500 miles, so that they will always stay exactly as spec'ed and never spend any time out of spec? Of course not, and it would be silly to do so. Chassis nuts and bolts are supposed to be checked at every service, and as a bike ages and the miles pile on, one learns which fasteners are more (or less) likely to require attention. There is nothing unusual about this. If you and/or the shop who services your bike are not regularly checking the various fasteners, you are omitting an important maintenance step.
sproggy said:
Is the phrase "a tempest in a teapot" used over there? Because, that is what this is. A lof of fuss about something insignificant. As mentioned above, there are many things that gradually go out of adjustment. Periodically, you put them back to spec. I am about to hit 30,000 miles on my 1200GS, which will be what, the fifth major service interval? At each of those services that I have performed (I did not do the first 2; the shop did) the pinch bolts have been just fine. Also, at least a couple of times (due to threads like this one here and elsewhere) I have gone out the the garage and specifically checked the pinch bolts. Each time: A-OK. This is not a problem. At most, this is a minor incremental maintenance item. No worries.
Oh, here's another one that would be interesting for people to check. How many of you have ever checked the large bolts that hold your centerstand on? With the bike on the sidestand, go out and check them. There are only 2 bolts involved and if I recall correctly, you will need a 6mm allen wrench. I don't know if mine are an anomaly, but they do loosen up sometimes.
You're far more 'understanding' than most people. Not all bike owners (specifically R1200GS owners) have more than the slightest mechanical knowledge and posess no torque wrench or torx bits.
Expecting someone to go over the whole bike every few hundred miles is simply not acceptable - you don't have to do it with a Japanese bike and you didn't have to do it with an 1150. You shouldn't have to do it with any modern vehicle, however many wheels it has.
There are documented cases of their the looseness of these bolts causing accidents. Perhaps my multple re-torquing of the bolts last night will solve the problem once and for all. Fine for me, but the point is, why wasn't this done either at the factory or by the dealer?
There is no argument that will convince me that the loosening of these bolts within 450 miles is acceptable!
Expecting someone to go over the whole bike every few hundred miles is simply not acceptable - you don't have to do it with a Japanese bike and you didn't have to do it with an 1150. You shouldn't have to do it with any modern vehicle, however many wheels it has.
There are documented cases of their the looseness of these bolts causing accidents. Perhaps my multple re-torquing of the bolts last night will solve the problem once and for all. Fine for me, but the point is, why wasn't this done either at the factory or by the dealer?
There is no argument that will convince me that the loosening of these bolts within 450 miles is acceptable!
Bigtwin
Guest
sproggy said:
"WHACK-DING". Sound of nail being hit squarly on head.
I have a great deal of sympathy with with what EMOTO has posted, IMHO the posts on this thread highlight both the good points and the bad points of the internet. There is no authoratative voice on this issue. In some ways I believe this is what many are complaining about. Either there is or isn't a problem, and BMW or any other manufacturer in a similar position should make a statement one way or the other to settle the matter.
On one point however I do disagree with EMOTO's statements. If he ( or any manufacturer ) feels that we should regularly be tightening these bolts, and various others, then it should be made quite clear in the owners manual that this is the case. If not mentioned we are entitled to assume that they are only due for checking at service times.
On one point however I do disagree with EMOTO's statements. If he ( or any manufacturer ) feels that we should regularly be tightening these bolts, and various others, then it should be made quite clear in the owners manual that this is the case. If not mentioned we are entitled to assume that they are only due for checking at service times.
NorthernBoy
Guest
sproggy said:
I agree.
I am starting to susppect that the supposed reliability of BMWs is largely caused by the blinkered view of some owners, who simply refuse to accept that their support for the marque is anything other than 100% rational.
Time and time again on here, people pretend that faults should be discounted or ignored. Whereas owners of most other bikes woudl accept a fault as being a real fault, a lot of people on here prefer to say that we have too high expectations.
The reason we have too high expectations is that most of us are used to bikes that are built better.
Emoto
Registered user
sproggy said:
Did you do the re-torque like I suggested? If so, I am hoping that it takes care of your issue. Would you be kind enougth to keep us posted on this?
I disagree with your assessment that there "documented cases of their the looseness of these bolts causing accidents". There have been accidents, yes, and bolts have been found to be undertorqued, but I have read all the threads that people linked to, and I have yet to see anything resembling a causal relationship. 1200GSs can be a little skittish at speed unless the suspension has been set up properly to plant more weight on the front end, so are far more prone to tank slappers if loaded down in the rear than any other BMW I've ridden.
As to Japanese bikes "never" needing attention of this sort between services (I forget who mentioned that) if you have any friends with older GSXRs, and want to have a little fun with them, throw a torque wrench on the clutch cover bolts. Chances are they will be loose as hell. I'll have to go look up the spec, but I think it was around 90 inch/pounds.
sjwb
Registered user
R1100S lower triple clamp bolts WERE Loctite secured from the factory. So is my GS - now 
Emoto said:
I had already torqued up my bolts in the way that you suggested prior to reading your post - I'm also hoping that it solves the issue! I do about 300 miles a week so it shouldn't take long to establish whether or not that cured the problem - I'll certainly post back (either way) with an update.
Regarding Japanese bikes I didn't say that they never need attention between services:
Sproggy said:
I stand by what I said - regardless of country of origin or number of wheels the owner of a vehicle should not be expected to carry out any maintenance not detailed in the owner's manual. I accept that some Japanese bikes may suffer similar problems on occasion but that's no more acceptable than on a BMW. It's not just the occurence of these problems that's the issue - it's how the manufacturer responds to it (recall or burying their collective heads in the sand).
sjwb
Registered user
The owner is NOT expected to carry out non-detailed maintenance; it is the responsibility of the dealer network. If you wish to do it yourself so be it - your call.
sjwb said:
But such maintenance shouldn't even be the responsibiblity of the dealer network IMO - if a manufacturer sells a product and specifies 6000 mile service intervals that product should be able to last those 6000 miles with only 'routine maintenance' as specified in the owners manual.
Basically we have the choice - take the bike back to the dealer every week to have the bolts checked (not acceptable for either us or the dealers), do it ourselves every week (also not acceptable from a consumer point of view) or leave the bike for 6000 miles at a time and see what falls off/breaks (not advisable or responsible). Personally I'd prefer just to be able to ride the thing and not worry about things coming undone and falling off.....
sproggy said:
Abso-effing-lutely! I couldn't agree more mate.
sjwb
Registered user
Perhaps if owners did go back to the dealers every week something would be done about this so-called issue.
Graham G
Guest
A common fault...
...I've read this thread (and the sticky) with interest.
I agree that both BMW and the dealer network have an ethical responsibility to make sure we are not riding around on something that could cause us harm. Until last week I was thinking that I was only needing to look out for two things: (1) My own riding skills; and (2) Other road users. Now - SHOCK, HORROR - I'm having to keep my eye on the manufacturer supplying me with something less than ideal. That's worrying and annoying.
In my opinion BMW Motorrad are looking to rapidly increase market share - and perhaps quality is the loser in this market strategy. Quality and Reliability associated with the BMW brand were key drivers in my decision to buy Beemer. Naive twat I am!
Still that said, I've not had this front fork bolt torquing issue at all. I do check them every fortnight or so, but tight as a whistle. So, that makes me think "Why the difference? - What's everyone else doing different to me?" Probably nothing. I do about 500 miles a week, all roads, all weather. So, what gives? To me this is the worst kind of fault, because it doesn't appear to occur on every machine. I'm thankful my bike seems OK as far as the fork bolts are concerned - but then we've got everything else that can go potentially wrong.
For me I'll continue to check the bolts periodically. I know I shouldn't need to - but I like tinkering. I don't need to change the oil every 3000 miles - but I do; in a way I like reading these threads - because when I do I'm straight out to the bike to check it out and to remedy stuff before it gets worse.
I hate the bike because of what I read on this website - but then, I love the bike for the same reason. The more I tinker with it, the more I get to know it - and strangely enough there is something reassuring in that. Like everyone, I want the bike that I've paid for, with as little to worry about as possible - I want my focus to be on enjoying the ride, not worrying about everything that could go wrong.
Fingers crossed that I haven't bought a pile of scheisse though!
...I've read this thread (and the sticky) with interest.
I agree that both BMW and the dealer network have an ethical responsibility to make sure we are not riding around on something that could cause us harm. Until last week I was thinking that I was only needing to look out for two things: (1) My own riding skills; and (2) Other road users. Now - SHOCK, HORROR - I'm having to keep my eye on the manufacturer supplying me with something less than ideal. That's worrying and annoying.
In my opinion BMW Motorrad are looking to rapidly increase market share - and perhaps quality is the loser in this market strategy. Quality and Reliability associated with the BMW brand were key drivers in my decision to buy Beemer. Naive twat I am!
Still that said, I've not had this front fork bolt torquing issue at all. I do check them every fortnight or so, but tight as a whistle. So, that makes me think "Why the difference? - What's everyone else doing different to me?" Probably nothing. I do about 500 miles a week, all roads, all weather. So, what gives? To me this is the worst kind of fault, because it doesn't appear to occur on every machine. I'm thankful my bike seems OK as far as the fork bolts are concerned - but then we've got everything else that can go potentially wrong.
For me I'll continue to check the bolts periodically. I know I shouldn't need to - but I like tinkering. I don't need to change the oil every 3000 miles - but I do; in a way I like reading these threads - because when I do I'm straight out to the bike to check it out and to remedy stuff before it gets worse.
I hate the bike because of what I read on this website - but then, I love the bike for the same reason. The more I tinker with it, the more I get to know it - and strangely enough there is something reassuring in that. Like everyone, I want the bike that I've paid for, with as little to worry about as possible - I want my focus to be on enjoying the ride, not worrying about everything that could go wrong.
Fingers crossed that I haven't bought a pile of scheisse though!
NorthernBoy
Guest
Graham G said:
I think that that would be putting it a bit strongly.
They are great bikes, great fun, and very capable. They are just not put together as well as some other brands.
I'd put the build quality at about the same level as my old RD350YPVS. That, too, was a great bike, but one on which you had to be a bit more understanding than you do on, say, a Honda CBR600.
Graham G
Guest
NorthernBoy said:
At the bottom line, I think the bike is great and I agree with your comments completely. I changed the oil for the first time at the weekend 3K miles in. Now it feels really sweet. Still checking all those electrical bits that can corrode and will get them covered with vaseline or something similar. Looking forward to doing more of my own maintenance. So, yes I do like the bike.
NorthernBoy
Guest
Graham G said:At the bottom line, I think the bike is great and I agree with your comments completely. I changed the oil for the first time at the weekend 3K miles in. Now it feels really sweet. Still checking all those electrical bits that can corrode and will get them covered with vaseline or something similar. Looking forward to doing more of my own maintenance. So, yes I do like the bike.
It is the first bike that I have had in a long time that I feel a real affinity with, and just want to get out and ride. There is something indefinable that just pushes the right buttons for me.
This does not mean, though, that I will gloss over faults or poor build, and I think that those who do reallly need to take a careful look at themselves, to work out why they feel the need to believe that their favourite bike is perfection, in the face of the facts.
I bet they think their wives aren't boilers, too...
dickie
Guest
Having kicked off this thread, its interesting to see how its developed. Some good points all round.
Personally, i think this is a design flaw, rather than something to do with poor pdi's etc. This component looks pretty important to me and i can't believe that loose bolts in this locale can be anything other than 'a bad thing'. Mine have lost torque in the space of one longish ride - how can a dealer cope with that?
It would seem to me that there is enough (reasonable) comment on this subject to demonstrate a genuine concern but BM appear to be committing a classic corporate error in not communicating. Given bikers levels of passion (ok, obsession), plus the proven brand-bashing power of the interweb, this is baffling.
I think the suggestion that BM are rushing new models out rather too quickly and that quality has suffered might be on the money. My bro is on his fourth BM - the 1000 hyper sports electric suspension girder fork thing, and says it will be his last: too many scary fuelling moments on wet mini-roundabouts. The dealer he say 'they all do that, sir...'
Having had fun on all sorts, like most of you I expect, i can say without doubt that this ugly contraption is the most enjoyable bike I've ever had. But the fork bolt malarky really puts a dent in my faith. And faith is something you need when you tip into a bend at 90. I am not terribly worried about my centre stand bolts (mentioned by an earlier correspondent), but the fact that my fork bolts came loose within 300 miles of being torqued up by the shop - and that following a service - frightens the hell out of me.
I haven't had a Jap bike for years (gawd bless the TDM...) but have been tootling around for eight years on what, legend has it, is one of the most fragile bikes ever built: a Duke engined Bimota. Commuting, track days, riding through snow, its done the lot. Other than put in petrol, all I ever did was look to see if teh typres were still attached and take it to the the shop per year. The mirrors fell off and the indicators were a bit random, but the fork bolts budged not at all. The blind luck of the mechanically ignorant maybe?
I have met some GS owners who can strip the bike down to ball bearings in the dark using nothing but a soggy lolly stick. I find them quite inspiring but fear that BM are abusing this level of enthusiasm. The practical approach of 'take responsiblity - tighten stuff' is right. How can it not be? But so too is the idea that you shouldn't have to on a part like this - not after 300 miles! Engineers are quite capable of getting these things right (if they are allowed). Like the guy said, do we check the wishbones on our cars suspension once a month?
Before we shrug our shoulders and accept the line 'but they all do that, sir' we should remember that 'premium' brands test their customers patience / loyalty all the time, in a way that mainstream producers wouldn't dare to.
At the extreme end, as a journo, i have heard incredible horror stories of Ferrari 550's from half a dozen owners. One told me he could never gurantee to finish the journey he started in his - yet still he loved it. "Its about passion", I think he said. If he hadn't had five other cars to drive when the Fezza went 'phut', or he'd ended up in a tree and then traction, perhaps he would have viewed the brand differently. If they had to sell 5m cars per year rather than 5000, perhaps Ferrari would too.
More famously, it used to take Mercedes longer to fix the faults of the cars coming off the producing line than it took for Toyota to make a car in the first place. Guess which company is worth more now? It took a few Moose serves and lots of disgruntled German taxi drivers but Merc finally admitted to their quality probs and have now pledged to be as good as Toyota in future. Pretty humbling for the guys who invented the car in the first place.
If one german brand with a reputation for quality can screw up, so can another. The question is - will BM pay attention, as Merc did? Or might they be too excited by the experience of topping sales charts and simply go bonkers trying to fill every product niche in as short a time as possible?
One chap on the string cautioned against turning rumour into fact by repetition (re: the unproven comment that fork bolts have caused crashes that have hospitalised riders), and that's worth considering. But so too is the potential cost of patient acceptance. What if there is a fault, comparable perhaps to Suzuki's rotary shock on the TL1000? Do we wait for an accident and then get righteous?
And if there is no fault, why should so many of us have our enjoyment tarnished by uncertaintly? It shouldn't take bad press or plumeting residuals for customer relationships to count.
Personally, i think this is a design flaw, rather than something to do with poor pdi's etc. This component looks pretty important to me and i can't believe that loose bolts in this locale can be anything other than 'a bad thing'. Mine have lost torque in the space of one longish ride - how can a dealer cope with that?
It would seem to me that there is enough (reasonable) comment on this subject to demonstrate a genuine concern but BM appear to be committing a classic corporate error in not communicating. Given bikers levels of passion (ok, obsession), plus the proven brand-bashing power of the interweb, this is baffling.
I think the suggestion that BM are rushing new models out rather too quickly and that quality has suffered might be on the money. My bro is on his fourth BM - the 1000 hyper sports electric suspension girder fork thing, and says it will be his last: too many scary fuelling moments on wet mini-roundabouts. The dealer he say 'they all do that, sir...'
Having had fun on all sorts, like most of you I expect, i can say without doubt that this ugly contraption is the most enjoyable bike I've ever had. But the fork bolt malarky really puts a dent in my faith. And faith is something you need when you tip into a bend at 90. I am not terribly worried about my centre stand bolts (mentioned by an earlier correspondent), but the fact that my fork bolts came loose within 300 miles of being torqued up by the shop - and that following a service - frightens the hell out of me.
I haven't had a Jap bike for years (gawd bless the TDM...) but have been tootling around for eight years on what, legend has it, is one of the most fragile bikes ever built: a Duke engined Bimota. Commuting, track days, riding through snow, its done the lot. Other than put in petrol, all I ever did was look to see if teh typres were still attached and take it to the the shop per year. The mirrors fell off and the indicators were a bit random, but the fork bolts budged not at all. The blind luck of the mechanically ignorant maybe?
I have met some GS owners who can strip the bike down to ball bearings in the dark using nothing but a soggy lolly stick. I find them quite inspiring but fear that BM are abusing this level of enthusiasm. The practical approach of 'take responsiblity - tighten stuff' is right. How can it not be? But so too is the idea that you shouldn't have to on a part like this - not after 300 miles! Engineers are quite capable of getting these things right (if they are allowed). Like the guy said, do we check the wishbones on our cars suspension once a month?
Before we shrug our shoulders and accept the line 'but they all do that, sir' we should remember that 'premium' brands test their customers patience / loyalty all the time, in a way that mainstream producers wouldn't dare to.
At the extreme end, as a journo, i have heard incredible horror stories of Ferrari 550's from half a dozen owners. One told me he could never gurantee to finish the journey he started in his - yet still he loved it. "Its about passion", I think he said. If he hadn't had five other cars to drive when the Fezza went 'phut', or he'd ended up in a tree and then traction, perhaps he would have viewed the brand differently. If they had to sell 5m cars per year rather than 5000, perhaps Ferrari would too.
More famously, it used to take Mercedes longer to fix the faults of the cars coming off the producing line than it took for Toyota to make a car in the first place. Guess which company is worth more now? It took a few Moose serves and lots of disgruntled German taxi drivers but Merc finally admitted to their quality probs and have now pledged to be as good as Toyota in future. Pretty humbling for the guys who invented the car in the first place.
If one german brand with a reputation for quality can screw up, so can another. The question is - will BM pay attention, as Merc did? Or might they be too excited by the experience of topping sales charts and simply go bonkers trying to fill every product niche in as short a time as possible?
One chap on the string cautioned against turning rumour into fact by repetition (re: the unproven comment that fork bolts have caused crashes that have hospitalised riders), and that's worth considering. But so too is the potential cost of patient acceptance. What if there is a fault, comparable perhaps to Suzuki's rotary shock on the TL1000? Do we wait for an accident and then get righteous?
And if there is no fault, why should so many of us have our enjoyment tarnished by uncertaintly? It shouldn't take bad press or plumeting residuals for customer relationships to count.
Emoto
Registered user
Well said, Dickie!
I just had a thought while reading your post. Not being where my bike is right now, do the yoke pinch bolt holes go all the way through? If we could use a longer bolt and put locknuts on the end...
I just had a thought while reading your post. Not being where my bike is right now, do the yoke pinch bolt holes go all the way through? If we could use a longer bolt and put locknuts on the end...
Ste@SSB
Registered user
DISCLAIMER: This is my opinion ... not the opinion of Southport Superbikes ... not the opinion of BMW...
When I first saw the other thread on pinch bolts I ran around the workshop checking them all ... they were all ok ... not one loose ... since then I have checked loads and I really do mean loads ... mainly at an owners request ... sometimes just because this subject has come up again ... I have found nothing ... and by nothing I really do mean nothing...
I have no reason to tell you otherwise ... I don't have to make this post ... but I'll tell you why I am...
Having looked through the threads and read all the posts I have come to one simple conclusion ... you are going to get some tosser killed if you keep it up ... this just isn't funny anymore ... if your fork pinch bolts are coming loose then take the damn thing back to the dealer ... Jesus Christ ... if someone from here does a bit of a home fix with some lock wire and a drill then they will never get the opportunity to come on here and tell you all about it ... a bit loose is one thing ... having all the heads shear off when you go over a bump is a different ball game...
When I first saw the other thread on pinch bolts I ran around the workshop checking them all ... they were all ok ... not one loose ... since then I have checked loads and I really do mean loads ... mainly at an owners request ... sometimes just because this subject has come up again ... I have found nothing ... and by nothing I really do mean nothing...
I have no reason to tell you otherwise ... I don't have to make this post ... but I'll tell you why I am...
Having looked through the threads and read all the posts I have come to one simple conclusion ... you are going to get some tosser killed if you keep it up ... this just isn't funny anymore ... if your fork pinch bolts are coming loose then take the damn thing back to the dealer ... Jesus Christ ... if someone from here does a bit of a home fix with some lock wire and a drill then they will never get the opportunity to come on here and tell you all about it ... a bit loose is one thing ... having all the heads shear off when you go over a bump is a different ball game...
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