BMW trying to hard

[Mr Bean]

Feel is everything isn't it??

Without wishing to blow smoke up your arse, I think you probably ride at a much higher level than the majority of us on here. No doubt you employment history helped - dispatching/police/training, but I suspect you have a natural ability that few people possess.

A young guy I used to work with had an ability to drive very quickly but I also felt safe. He also had 'feel' with cars, in that he could sit in a car and note that one of the shocks was buggered, just by sitting in it.

I'm reasonably experienced, done a fair number of group rides and taken a quite a few tours, including Rapid's tour of Scotland last August. I've also taken additional training, RoSPA/IAM/Rapid Roadmaster and through choice, I ride all year. However, I don't have the 'feel' that you and some others appear to have - I find the GS's suspension just fine. I can feel the difference between the two settings as road is a bit soft and dynamic a bit to harsh at times, but I couldn't tell you if the rebound or compression is too great or too little, whether the sag needed adjustment.

I doubt many of the people (possibly two) I've ridden with have the ability that you appear to have.

Maybe it would help if I rode a bike set up just for me and my style - maybe it would be a 'light bulb' moment, but I suspect otherwise.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

You’re right, I think, I’m so much as an ‘elevated’ level of feel is almost like a sixth sense that comes naturally to some but as for feeling whether your high speed compression needs dialling down a touch or you need a bit more more rebound, well, that can all be learnt if you’re so inclined.

Andres

 

[Packer]

The shite early LC gearboxes meant that I turned away from BMW and I've never been inclined to try another one.

Ever increasing weight and complexity aren't what I want. Electronic everything is just likely to prove costly and unreliable long term and I tend to keep my bikes well over five years.

My answer an AJP with only electronic injection and igintion. Nothing else. 165kgs, fully fuelled with 17 ltrs.

 

[leadfarmer]

I’ve got a UJM but what’s an AJP ?

 

[tanneman]

If you want to ride a bike quickly then it is most certain that you will want to feel what is going on beneath you. Especially in the wet, you don't want to be caught out by a sudden loss of grip or not understanding what performance is available from the suspension or brakes if you have to save yourself from someone else's mistake or your own. That dead feeling you get from electronic suspension and wooden brakes does not do the rider any good. I can feel the rear shock adjusting underneath me as I rode along which is unusual and distracting. That adjustment I could feel would have an impact on the front and if it adjusts in a corner then it would upset the balance of the bike. Just when you need it because barrelling down favourite B road to one of your favourite corners only to find halfway through that rain had washed sand onto your line and you have to adjust to miss that section. That is where you rely on the feel from the bike and to dial the right amount of steering and rear brake in to compensate. I cannot trust the new GS/GSA to do that for me. It doesn't inspire the same confidence as the older model. It may seem crazy to say that to the newly converted. By all means you pays your money and make your choices.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

I’ve got a UJM but what’s an AJP ?

One of these lovely things, I very nearly bought one myself this year but the Husky won out in the end..............

<a href="https://andressotoscastello.smugmug.com/UkGSer/n-5CFLKf/i-9bm8BjS/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9bm8BjS/0/90b88cc5/XL/i-9bm8BjS-XL.jpg" alt=""></a>

Andres

 

[leadfarmer]

One of these lovely things, I very nearly bought one myself this year but the Husky won out in the end..............

<a href="https://andressotoscastello.smugmug.com/UkGSer/n-5CFLKf/i-9bm8BjS/A"><img src="https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9bm8BjS/0/90b88cc5/XL/i-9bm8BjS-XL.jpg" alt=""></a>

Andres

Ah, thanks, not seen those

 

[Giles]

The shite early LC gearboxes meant that I turned away from BMW and I've never been inclined to try another one.

Ha!

Oh Lordy! I had a 2013 GS to, and boy was the gearbox bad on that! Only had it about 18 months before getting rid if it. Awful! (Something Engineer couldn't understand!).

However, Ive now got am R1200R in the garage, and its as sweet as a nut! So clearly BM got on the case and sorted it out, but Yes ... those early ones were truly terrible!

 

[Giles]

I'm reasonably experienced, done a fair number of group rides and taken a quite a few tours, including Rapid's tour of Scotland last August. .

Was that with Dave Burton?? He's good guy!!

 

[Mr Bean]

Was that with Dave Burton?? He's good guy!!

It was indeed. Nice guy - his missus (Alison) is a fair rider too. Happily, I spent most of the time at the back of the group - more time to ride at the pace I wanted to.

Didn't ask him for general feedback of what he saw, but he was complimentary over a number of points.

 

[Giles]

 

[Matty589]

Waiting until next year to see what the new Triumph 1200 Explorer turns out like

When I saw the words “lightest in its class” it piqued my interest. If it’s 1Kg lighter than it’s competitors however…
Maybe a bit more barebones wouldn’t hurt. The 850 sport seems to be doing well - but I do wish they wouldn’t copy BMW’s ridiculous naming convention of its midrange bikes

 

[Edmund Kean]

Feel is everything isn't it??

If I sit here now, close my eyes, and put myself on a bike, maybe on a nadgery b road .. and re-live the experience in my mind .. the thing I re-live and imagine more than anything else, is the feel of the bike. That feel is is in my hands, my feet, my arse .... it's ... everything!

Feel, certainly for me (cant speak for anybody else), gives me confidence. Braking, turn in, mid corner, corner exit, getting on the gas, gas v lean angle, brakes V lean angle! .... if you cant feel it .... ??

My aprillia has very, very good electronic suspension. But as good as it is, I still think that you cant beat a very good manual set up. And thats mostly because the feel is 'live' and right now. Very good suspension has a lovely organic feel to it. Electronic suspension can often have quite a binary 0's and 1's feel about it.

(cue conversation about telelever separating braking and suspension but maybe at the cost of feel ??!).

Feel is not just the preserve of those that want to spank it! Wet days? Cold days? Off camber urban roundabouts on a January morning commute?

Maybe the thing to examine here would be what are you feeling?! Then understanding that (too slow rebound, too fast rebound, too high compression, low tyre pressures, high pressures, overbanding, a genuine little front end slide ..... whatever .. ) would be a good thing!

Feel

To tanneman & Giles

Most interesting and thank you both for the insight.

Feel isn’t a thing which is referred to in the riding manuals I know of and for good reason I suppose. Such an esoteric subject it seems can’t really be taught or written about, rather a time served accumulation of experiences which presumably develops a person’s ability to possibly get it. It would be my thought natural talent most likely plays a large role in one person achieving better feel over another.

My initial post shows ignorance in this area of motorcycling; I actually thought feel was how the suspension felt. A little time on the internet and I think I now understand it to being:

A motorcycle radiates information from the road at the rider’s contact points. It is the skill and/or talent level of a rider to translate, process and act upon the moment by moment changes to the information – this would be FEEL.

I would guess most road riders will have very little capability to receive and interpret all that information; instead, particularly in adverse riding conditions, relying upon parameters (these could be conceived from thoughts – or derived from previous experience – or gleaned) and also ranging degrees of roadcraft to keeping themselves and the motorcycle upright and rolling.

Giles wrote, ‘Feel is everything isn’t it??’ A somewhat wry question to the reader, though I would imagine he knows well enough most riders won’t have his ability to feel as he conveyed it. As it isn’t a prerequisite to riding a motorcycle my answer is, no it isn’t everything. Of course, if the ability to competently feel comes your way, I’m sure it would make motorcycling even more interesting, more fun and possibly safer (although I’m unsure of this); another arrow to your bow perhaps. Significantly though, you can’t have feel without the motorcycle, but you can have fun with a motorcycle without necessarily having feel. Ask one person to another and then another and so on why they ride and I’m sure the variety of answers will be different and quite probably the word feel in its sense used here, won’t feature. Police riders often regarded (rightly or wrongly) as the finest road riders in the land won’t all have feel. By and large I would suggest many of them won’t have, and paradoxically those that may have the ability to feel, may not be as good a road rider as one that doesn’t. A different subject but since some may draw a correlation between feel and being a good rider, it’s worth mentioning since they (Police riders) are often held in high regard by the motorcycling community – it should be noted that Police forces have to make do with who they have and train. In the eyes of trainers, key character attributes and essential cognitive skills are the most desirable qualities; feel is not. I sometimes think people/motorcyclists believe a police rider will be the same as the next police rider. In truth there can sometimes be a gulf between one and another and although far fewer in number, it is no different to the ranging riding competencies of so called civilian advanced riders.

It’s difficult to conceive how feel can play much of a significant role for road riders, since safe and enjoyable riding can be attained without it. In the dry I’m as swift as most but I haven’t ever knowingly adjusted my riding because of adverse feedback that I have processed. Again, in the wet I’m as swift as most. Clearly wet riding is a different proposition, but with the moment by moment application of sound roadcraft, adept machine control and applied parameters I get by.

I now understand tanneman’s view on the later ESA GS’s. If the information he receives is muddled and unclear, he can’t satisfactorily interpret it and even though he probably will remain perfectly safe, his experience is adverse and less enjoyable. That’s all.

I recall watching a youtube video a little while ago; Johnathan Rea is learning to ride a motorcycle in the fashion required to pass the UK motorcycle test. During the video is shares his thoughts at not having had tyres warmers as he sets off to follow his instructor on a cool wet day. He states that he didn’t want to ride at the pace of the instructor. Was this because his feel was telling him not to or were his parameters restricting him or was his feel letting him down?

Here’s a link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ZUJ_0oQ4g

 

[Engineer]

Suspension on the 1250GS is fab, especially fully loaded two up.

 

[CPJS]

Reply to Edmund Kean.
If you ride as swiftly as most then you will employing a lot of feel in your riding. If you ride on that lovely shiney tarmac in the wet, it 'feels' horrible. That smooth grippy tarmac in the summer 'feels' great. Another word is feedback, it's like countersteering, you use it without realising.
Some folk are better making use of it than others.

 

[wheelnut]

Agreed.
Suspension on latest bikes is horrid.it was better on my 2006 GSA !

Yeah that. My 2009 with the first incarnation of the ESA was much better on bumpy fast corners than the newer versions of ESA.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

...................
It’s difficult to conceive how feel can play much of a significant role for road riders, since safe and enjoyable riding can be attained without it. In the dry I’m as swift as most but I haven’t ever knowingly adjusted my riding because of adverse feedback that I have processed. Again, in the wet I’m as swift as most. Clearly wet riding is a different proposition, but with the moment by moment application of sound roadcraft, adept machine control and applied parameters I get by.

...............

Feel is everything off road; getting used to 'feeling' the bike moving around under you, 'feeling' the surface and attenuating your riding accordingly, 'feeling' how your suspension is working, 'feeling' for grip, etc etc

It's generally accepted that riding off road contributes to being a better road rider.
Yes that's partly due to 'techniques' that you learn and can apply to the road but mostly is because you are able to apply that heightened level of feel you have developed off road to the road.

Unlike you I'm not as swift as most, I'm pretty crap to be honest, but feel is something that I accept is right up there with the things I need to have to ride a bike well. It's something I think of a lot whilst riding, and if I'm honest, a very big part of what makes riding a bike fun for me as I'm no fan of binary rules. A little bit of 'grey' and something to constantly work on is fun in my book.

Andres

 

[Giles]

To tanneman & Giles

Most interesting and thank you both for the insight.........



Ha! Lots of information there!!

I think you're right about time on a bike giving you experience, which then gives you a degree of feel. So Rick, for example, has just bought a Street fighter. He is waxing lyrical about how good it is, how good it feels, and how much faster he feels he can go on it. He's probably not going faster because the engine delivers it, and it's 'faster' per se, he's probably going faster because the bike is more plush, the components are all quality, and so the overall feel of the bike in his arse feet and hands, is more tangible, calmer, there is a connectivity there that isn't masked with poor components, so ultimately, he probably feels more in control of the bike. By 'feeling in control' his brain says, 'go faster if you want - i'm not overwhelmed and confused'. (unusual for Rick )

My 790 has if i'm honest, pretty shite brakes. My Tuono has amazing brakes. Its just components - one is cheap, one is expensive. The difference isn't just in their ability to stop the bike, the gulf of the difference is in the feel in your fingers on the lever. That feel goes straight back to your brain and all your senses.
On the Tuono, hard, firm, build it up .. build it up ... build it up ..... aaaaand taper it off, is just a joy. It delivers that feel in bucket loads. (That feel will also come from good suspension in the forks, a good chassis at the headstock, good tyres .. all giving me feed back). That gives me confidence because the feel means I know whats going on.
The 790 has a real wooden feel to it. Aside from the fact that the actual stopping power won't be as good, i don't feel whats going on as well. So that firm it up .. firm it up .. firm it up .... maybe trail brake into a corner and just taper it off to nothing as i add lean angle ? It just doesn't work as well. Suspension is cheap, brakes are cheap and I just cant feel the floor, the tyres, .. like I can on the Tuono. So the confidence isn't there. (That might be pace if yer up for a spank, that might be a commute on a january morning at 0700 hrs)

Think 1980's tyres V 2021 tyres! In 1980 we didn't know any different! Today? I now realise how shit tyres were in the 80's !!



If you put a new rider on my Tuono or Ricks street fighter, they dont have anything to compare it to. So they don't know what they're feeling as such. But thirty years riding, and yes, you have all that experience under your belt.

I coached a newish rider the other day (riding about a year), and I just got a sixth sense before we went out that I should be asking a few questions about his bike and its maintenance! 'When did you last check your tyres ?!' 'Oh blimey .. when I bought the bike about five months ago' !! So we checked it and the front tyre had something like 22psi in it !!
He couldn't feel that! He couldn't feel how slow and soft that front end was. We put air in it and his first response was 'Oh wow, the bike turns really quickly now'! So that lack of feel from him is not necessarily him being a div (!), thats just good old inexperience and a lack of time in the saddle.
Hopefully you and I can feel 2 psi's difference. I can feel a cold tyre in the first mile of a ride not wanting to turn V a warm tyre wanting to turn like its chalk and cheese. Thats not cocky dick stuff, it's just years of bike riding. Most people on here would feel that too I'd like to think.


A big thing that I believe all bikers should do, is constantly ride other bikes. Geometry and engine configurations play such a massive part in biking. Something just as simple as an inline 4, V a V-twin. Again to you and me it's bread and butter, to the guy with the 22psi tyre it would be completely new territory and a whole new world of learning where different engines make power and how they engine brake . Sports bike geometry V Easy Rider geometry? Again to you and me thats Janet and John, but to the new guy that would be a whole education and new experience in why one bike turns on a sixpence and feels like the front wheel is under your bollocks, and why the other bike is as slow as feck to tuen and the front wheel feels disconnected!!

Riding other bikes is invaluable to building that world. That helps you understand so much about feel. The knock on effect is that you can jump on a bike and within thirty seconds you can feel if something isn't quite right, and probably what isn't quite right too.

 

[knutk]

Maaan, I'm glad I started to ride before it became so complicated

Being a simpleton, I just go riding, enjoying the road, the scenery and all the nice people that I meet along the way.

Since I have traffic code to relate to, my bike is rarely pushed to it's limits. Soo, riding along, enjoying life, if the horizon all of a sudden is filled with 50 tons on 18 wheels, I'm glad I can just pull the brake lever as hard as I can without worrying about the 'feel' of my brakes.

And, if I've been stuck behind a truck for a while, and the road suddenly opens up, I can just open the throttle for a swift acceleration, 'feeling' that the front wheel just barely touch the road for a short while, not worrying about loosing control due to an unexpected wheelie.

I read that to some people, the aids are intrusive. But yours truly cherish all the help I can get. And watching MotoGP, it seems like some of the riders sometimes also could do with a bit of help, locking their brakes. Guess I'm not the only one lacking the proper feeling

 

[Neil W]

Yeah that. My 2009 with the first incarnation of the ESA was much better on bumpy fast corners than the newer versions of ESA.

Yesterday rode my r1200gsa non esa bike up to the dealers to try out a new 1250gsa, typical demo it was a te model with dynamic esa , rode the bike a set route with dual carriageway,fast b roads and stretches of poorly maintained moorland single track roads.
Tried it in various modes including the different heights and the one that sets it to your weight and yes the ride was very good compared with my last 2014 esa bike but once on poor surfaces it started to become a bit crashy and had a slightly remote feel on faster bends
I would rate it as on par with my basic when it was on standard suspension but not as good as when the Maxton shocks are fitted.
To confirm this I did the same route on the way home and my bike definitely felt better, ride was more compliant, more feedback through the steering and it corrnered better holding its line , basically the bike was more composed and comfortable.
Have ordered a new 1250 ,however, I will have to wait as it is special order ie a Basic uprated to the spec I want, imagine a TE without esa,sos, the chatty new pink and amber indicators and gsap. Shame I have to have keyless ignition.
Once it arrives the Maxton suspension is going on and it will be my ideal bike and I will save a few thousand pounds , I did not intend changing my bike but the 3 year warranty is a clincher after this years holiday and this WILL be my last new bike ( until they bring out the hydrogen powered 1300 with twin turbos, rocket launchers and 17" wheels and of course 200 bhp)