Bottom paralever bearing question...

[Sunny Jim]

Was giving the old girl a wash yesterday and spotted bit of a greasy-mess around the bottom paralever bearing which I've cleaned away for now and will have a spin out later to see if it returns.
Looking around it it seems to me that the back end has to come completely off at the final drive unit to access the bearing - anybody know any different please?
(Away to Nurburg in a few weeks and need to sort this)

Ta

 

[duckspeed]

If it was mine I would strip the final drive off to check that bearing if it means just a general lube then so much the better.
If you correct a trip spoiling fault it's time well spent.

 

[Kenny Rodkiss]

It's a double row ball bearing on the outside, under the plastic cover, and on the inside it is a needle roller bearing.
Both have various rubber O rings and felt seals to keep crap out and grease in, or not in your case.

 

[Bendy toy]

Its a rolling bearing that moves only a few degrees so the grease gets pushed aside and bearings get hammered as the rollers get flat sided.

You need to heat the assembly to 100C to shift the threadlock but its an easy enough job otherwise. If the bearings and sleeve are ok pack it to the brim with moly grease as used in car drive shaft CV joints. With wheel bearings you should never fill more than 50% but for rocking bearings - the more the better.

Mine had been left rubbed dry for too long so I needed new parts.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Thanks for the replies gents - don't look like a quick fix - is this another common fault?

Kenny - I still have your bearings from the 1150 which I have never used on the 1150 GSA with 50+k miles on !!! - WTF is it with these 12's and bearings???

 

[Bendy toy]

Thanks for the replies gents - don't look like a quick fix - is this another common fault?

It's a common fault with almost every bike because the manufacturers have a fixation with needle roller bearings on suspension. Plain bushes are far more suitable but clearly not kosher. To illustrate, farm equipment uses sealed rollers and ball bearings in rotating shafts but never in a rocking action. These days they use Igus polymer bearings. Not long ago they would have self lube bushes by such as these http://www.astbearings.com/metallic-self-lubricating-bushings.html.

Bikes also have a hard working, rocking action in harsh conditions so why are they not using Igus or bronze bearings? Even plain brass bushes with grease nipples would be a better.

 

[Pukmeister]

Had the same issue a while back resulting in sideways play to the final drive on the swing arm mounting point, solved myself with new bearings, trunnion pin and seals/felt washer.

 

[Kenny Rodkiss]

If you don't have any play in the bearings just stuff them full of grease, they'll be fine.
I greased mine a couple of years ago and excess grease still oozes out round the needle toller bearing, specially in hot weather. Helps keep the water out.

 

[st247]

I found that mine had a small amount of play in them last year. You can tell if you stand on the rhs of the bike, grab the wheel top and bottom and try to rock it to and fro. If you feel the play you might also be able to see it at the paralever joint. If you feel the play you can ensure that it is the paralever by getting someone to hold the rear brake on. If the play disappears you need to consider the final drive.

Given that there's not much grease in them to start with are you sure it's not a final drive input seal leaking and letting the oil run down there?

All that said and done I did nothing with mine for a year, k15 miles,without any appreciable change in the amount of play.

 

[Bendy toy]

They will last a while with the minimal grease used at the factory. But they are worried about warranty claims for "oil" leaks so are mean with the grease. Apart from heating the case its an easy enough job to strip the trunnion bearing, fully pack the rollers and replace the seals.

This will be ideal http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CV-C-V-Jo...793643?hash=item542d08a32b:g:7HYAAMXQlgtS3qwx

 

[Sunny Jim]

Thanks Bendy - much appreciate your advice and the link to the lube

Pretty sure this was fine last week - the only 'strain' this 'bike has been under recently was riding over half a mile of stone sets at 25/30 mph. It's a 2011 TC with 7000 on the clock - not impressed

 

[Bendy toy]

It has a felt seal so maybe after a few years they can compress. Aa that mileage it should be fine with a strip, clean and new seals. But even better you get to lube it properly and keep it going for a lot longer than most.

 

[Micky]

Hey Jim .... chains'n sprockets rule OK

.... for 120,000 miles

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

Thanks Bendy - much appreciate your advice and the link to the lube

Pretty sure this was fine last week - the only 'strain' this 'bike has been under recently was riding over half a mile of stone sets at 25/30 mph. It's a 2011 TC with 7000 on the clock - not impressed

You still got that 1150 ?

If so, take that

 

[Bendy toy]

The Norton rotary bikes used by the Police had an oil bath chain final drive. The chain ran in rubber tubes so there was no slab sided chain box like a Honda Cub.

Plain non O ring chains would last for 80,000 miles without adjustment. They might well have done double that distance but being single row type fatigue fractures could happen. Smaller link double row chains would last longer as the links run more smoothly.

 

[comberjohn]

Think Norton took the idea from MZ. My '72 MZ 250 ETS had an identical system with the rubber tubes. No lube problems.
Was reading earlier about the BMW 650 super scooter. Chain drive in an oil bath!
Only bike I know that used a duplex drive chain was a Benelli 900 Sei. But no protection, so just a very expensive liability.

 

[TLSgazza]

Hey Jim .... chains'n sprockets rule OK

.... for 120,000 miles

When my final drive needed rebuilding at around 45,000 miles the service guy at wollastons said "well it still lasted longer than a chain and sprockets"
When I asked the price if a replacement unit if I didn't have the warranty and then told him my TLS was only on its third chain and sprocket kit in 65,000 miles he soon changed his tune. It should last the life of the vehicle imho.

 

[Bendy toy]

What does a chain and sprocket set cost for a >100bhp bike. Lets say a Ducati Monster. Big twins thump the transmission so chains will suffer.

Back in the 1970s I had the usual quick wear chains, but 20K plus was possible with regular cleaning and adjustments from a high revving twin or four banger.

My Honda XL 250 single would eat a chain in in less than 10K. They just seemed to evaporate. I used Reynolds chains so wasn't fitting rubbish and had a trials type chain tensioner to avoid the usual slack/tight compromise.

O-ring chains arrived a good while later, but they really are an engineered bodge. The links can carry a very limited lubrication and the same area gets all the rub (no rotating bearings) so they have to fail fairly fast.

 

[comberjohn]

I've similar memories of chains from that era. And don't forget, even the all conquering Kawasaki Z1 only produced around 90bhp.
After my recent experience with a failed FD, first one in five shaft driven BMW's, others all K bikes, I'm not a happy camper.
If you want an arse in the air racer clone, then an exposed chain is fine for those couple of thousand dry miles every year. But surely certain bikes that profess to be to tourers, GTR 1400, etc. would benefit immensely from a factory designed, integrated chain enclosure. Many other smaller models, too.
But why should they?
Many bike buyers now change their bike for a new one every three years and are lucky if they do 15k miles in that time. Try getting a PCP package for doing that in a year.
So children, us miserable gits who ride five year old bikes aren't important.
Our opinions are unimportant to the manufacturers. They only sell NEW bikes.
The dealers aren't interested either. Was in a dealers a few weeks ago and asked about a trade in for fun. When he heard mine had 28k miles he went very pale. Wouldn't take anything over 20k miles.
That's the reality.

 

[Bendy toy]

Very true and very sad. It means here is little or no innovation apart from numbers of cylinders and styling. Even BMW's shift to canbus and complex electronics was driven by the need for fuel injection to control emissions. They they simply used bulky car system boxes and crudely stacked them under the petrol tank. There must be two gallons of space wasted under there.

The only way we will get a proper transmission enclosure is when it can be proved that it wins on style, improves performance and reduces vibration. Of course it could do all of that but try proving it.

How about this idea.
Normal rear sprocket.
Normal front sprocket.
Fixed idler sprocket on top of swing arm just in front of the rear sprocket.
Spring loaded idler sprocket under swing arm just in front of the rear sprocket.
Chain follows a dumbbell shaped route.

Cover it all with a case that looks tadpole shape (Don't want suggest the other option)
There is no slab sided tin case no fancy castings and it would look almost like a shaft drive. It would need some oil sealing of course.
Run a twin row chain to reduce vibrations and improve fatigue life.

Of course it wont happen but really its not about cost or anything like that. Its just pure laziness by the bike makers. Apart from BMW with the costly and heavy Telelever and their over engineered Hossack (Duolever) there has been next to no innovation in bike design. TBH the innovation is happening in scooters but not in bikes. Piaggio MP3, DI 2 stokes, hybrid electric.

The New Zealand Britten 1000 came close but even that is a lot more complicated than needs be. Being a racer it also has an open chain.

30 years ago we had real problems with power station boiler soot blowers. They were a long tube (lance) on a rail with a gearbox at the outer end. The gears turned the lance and advanced it into the boiler. Steam blasted out of the end to clean the boiler tubes inside.

So far so good. But these were blowing dry steam at maybe 300C or more and the boiler house was not exactly a cool place to be. You can imagine how long the gearbox oil seals lasted and then how long the oil remained inside. A week if we were lucky. Rebuilding worn gearboxes every few weeks use cost a fortune. Each boiler had maybe 20 blowers.

The solution was a thixotropic grease and fitted bushes instead of oil seals. The grease did not leak at shaft seals but behaved like an oil between the gears. Today a version is used for old car gearboxes - the sort which leaked from new. http://vehiclesofvictory.com/2010/11/10/thixotropic-grease-a-great-solution-in-some-instances/ Who knows if it would work on bike drive chains but its highly likely to do a fine job. It wasn't even especially expensive.