Brake Fluid Replacement

davnjud

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On the Gs and other bikes there is a requirement to completely replace the brake fluid every two years. The usual justification is that brake fluid is hygroscopic and the increased water content may cause the brakes to boil or corrode the pistons etc. The same requirement does not appear to part of maintenance schedules for cars AFAIK. On ABS bikes bleeding can cause hard to track down problems so in solving one problem you create another. I am more than a bit sceptical about doing this but probably not brave enough to go it alone. Has anyone ever had problems with a bike caused by aged fluid ? Please cure my scepticism with some persuasive arguments and put me back on the righteous path :thumb2
David
 
Don't bother.. it's just another arse covering 'requirement', as you say changing brake fluid has not been a service requirement for cars.. (or never used to be).

How can water get into a sealed system anyway?

I've no doubt that if you left a cup of brake fluid on your workbench for a year or so, then sent it to a laboratory, some H2O could be found in the molecular structure.
 
Each to their own about when to do a change. I do both of my bikes at about 2 year intervals in fact I'm doing mine today! I have a GS911 which helps with this but even so I don't find it a difficult operation. Never had a problem with either my K1100 or R1200GSA. I use a syringe and some fuel injector line to vacume the fluid through the system from the caliper. I understand the older servo brakes are a little more difficult to do but I don't have those so can't comment. Whether or not they need doing I don't really know but its easy to do so no real hardship.
 
Replacing conventional brake fluid, as opposed to the mineral fluid use by Citroen, has long been a service requirement in cars.
In many countries the water content is tested as part of the annual test, sadly not in the UK.

Most brake fluid containers carry a warning about using fluid from tins that have been opened. A decent garage will have a tester, they are not expensive these days. These fluid are hygroscopic and a relatively low water content will cause the boiling point to be lowered. Brakes generate a fearsome amount of heat just stick yours hand on a cars brake discs after it has come fast down a mountain pass.

Even if you don't suffer brake fade you are risking the corrosion caused by the fluid and it's water content.

As far as I can see people don't change fluid for one of two reason Total stupidity or being to tight to pay for it. Don't you people know how to use Google? Look it up! This all might sound harsh but we are talking about safety. If you only ride/drive on your own on a private track, do whatever you like. If you share the roads with others then not checking your facts and acting upon this information is irresponsible.

John
 
Grey one

No one on here is stupid, are you or is it just your natural arrogance?, we tend to make up our own minds about such matters.
 
Each to their own about when to do a change. I do both of my bikes at about 2 year intervals in fact I'm doing mine today! I have a GS911 which helps with this but even so I don't find it a difficult operation. Never had a problem with either my K1100 or R1200GSA. I use a syringe and some fuel injector line to vacume the fluid through the system from the caliper. I understand the older servo brakes are a little more difficult to do but I don't have those so can't comment. Whether or not they need doing I don't really know but its easy to do so no real hardship.

Just a matter of interest but how does the gs911 help bleed the brakes
 
Replacing conventional brake fluid, as opposed to the mineral fluid use by Citroen, has long been a service requirement in cars.
In many countries the water content is tested as part of the annual test, sadly not in the UK.

Most brake fluid containers carry a warning about using fluid from tins that have been opened. A decent garage will have a tester, they are not expensive these days. These fluid are hygroscopic and a relatively low water content will cause the boiling point to be lowered. Brakes generate a fearsome amount of heat just stick yours hand on a cars brake discs after it has come fast down a mountain pass.

Even if you don't suffer brake fade you are risking the corrosion caused by the fluid and it's water content.

As far as I can see people don't change fluid for one of two reason Total stupidity or being to tight to pay for it. Don't you people know how to use Google? Look it up! This all might sound harsh but we are talking about safety. If you only ride/drive on your own on a private track, do whatever you like. If you share the roads with others then not checking your facts and acting upon this information is irresponsible.

John
Sorry.. Utter (brainwashed) Nonsense...!
 
Sorry.. Utter (brainwashed) Nonsense...!

So you looked it up then! Show your evidence please. I would really like to know, is it some giant conspiracy involving all the manufacturers, every major motoring organisation,the scientific establishment, National testing authorities such as ours here in Austria? If they are all in it together I would like to know so do please tell.

All of these say the fluid should be changed and explain why, strangely enough they all give the same explanation. Tell me why they are wrong and you are right.

John
 
Just a matter of interest but how does the gs911 help bleed the brakes

Its mostly to do with the ABS, as part of the fluid change with the GS911 you can bleed test the system - this works the modulators to make sure all the fluid in there has been changed and it expels any air there may be in there. In addition you can test the individual components of the ABS to make sure they all work OK.
 
Replacing conventional brake fluid, as opposed to the mineral fluid use by Citroen, has long been a service requirement in cars.
Having owned dozens of cars over a number of decades I never recall once having the brake fluid changed as part of a service or recall seeing this procedure in the service specs.
 
Its mostly to do with the ABS, as part of the fluid change with the GS911 you can bleed test the system - this works the modulators to make sure all the fluid in there has been changed and it expels any air there may be in there. In addition you can test the individual components of the ABS to make sure they all work OK.

Cheers for that i haven't got a gs911 yet but want to swap the fluid, in your experiance how much extra fluid is removed using gs 911 as opposed to not having one connected or is this the only way to do it
 
No one on here is stupid, are you or is it just your natural arrogance?, we tend to make up our own minds about such matters.

Your profile says 6745 posts so you have been around for a while and you say no one on here is Stupid :nenau
Stupidity is all around us, we all a guilty of it from time to time myself included. We all know there have been posts that make you wonder why the person concerned is allowed out on their own.

To me, and I accept these things are subjective, refusing to believe the huge weight of evidence that the type of fluid being discussed needs regular replacement is stupid. It can't really be called ignorance as the people concerned have heard there might be a problem.

You use the word arrogance, for my part it appears that thinking you know better than others might be one definition of that term. So are not those who, without scientific evidence, hold that the entire motor and motorcycle industries are wrong on this and that they are right, might they not be called arrogant?

As you may know I worked on Citroen cars for many years, 40 odd in fact with 30 of those running my own repair business. Citroen solved problems they were having using a variation of conventional brake fluid by changing to a mineral fluid (1967). These vehicles had high pressure hydraulics used for brakes, suspension, gear changing and clutch operation as well as steering

Most of these problems were caused by the hygroscopic nature of the fluid and the corrosion caused internally by this. If you look at many parts of the system you will see that there were often no seals. It worked because of the close tolerances used in manufacture. Therefore small amounts of corrosion caused things to sick and hence fail. From the point that Citroen change other cars in the range away from normal brake fluid we saw no further problems with things like leaking rear wheel cylinders. If you want to look for a conspiracy in the trade you could do worse than asking why, when there was an alternative, they continued to use an inferior fluid.

Since moving here and setting up our biker hotel I have replaced fluid on a number of guests bikes. Usually it can be described as "brown trouser syndrome" A guy come back, white faced, telling of how his brakes failed coming down a pass. On inspection everything looks in order (and I do know what I am looking at). If there is no other fault in the system such as a fluid leak then the logical explanation for the lever or pedal having had no resistance but since recovering is brake fade. This is caused by the fluid turning to a gas by the effects of the heat generated under braking. It is a fact that with age the fluid absorbs moisture and the boiling point therefore reduces, in extreme circumstances this will manifest as brake fade. Often I find it is the rear brake, people tell me the fluid was replaced in the front but not the rear! After the fluid is replaced the guests go on to report no further problem even when, as some have done, they try to provoke it.

I am sorry if I have caused offence, or indeed bored to death those of you who have got this far but I maintain that we are talking about a safety issue. Were we discussing the rights and wrongs of replacing an alternator belt for instance as a precautionary measure, then I would be with you 100%, In that case it would be up to each of us to weigh up the risks involved and decide as grown ups, what to do. There is little chance of injury to self or others if we get it wrong.

That is not the case with the risk of brake failure, we cannot choose when an where this might happen or who else might unwittingly be involved. I therefore ask that the sceptics look again at the evidence concerning the nature of brake fluid and not just say things like " Well I haven't changed fluid in 20 years and I am still alive" or " I don't understand how the moisture gets in" I would say to the former, you are lucky but then so is the man who played Russian Roulette and lived (and I know that is an over dramatic example but I hope you see the principle), to the later, not understanding how something happens is not the same as knowing it can't happen.


John
 
Sorry.. Utter (brainwashed) Nonsense...!

Changing brake fluid has been a service requirement on cars for at least the last 20 years. Some manufacturers say once a year others up to 3 years depending on the system and vehicle. Never was an issue on older vehicles as brake systems were pretty basic, just a few pistons and some pipes and brake fade was just a fact of life when pushing your old Cortina to its limits :eek:. Modern brake systems are as far away from that as an old mini A series engine is from a modern engine with its fully managed fuel and ignition systems.
Modern brakes are required to work harder, hotter and faster. The fluid has to run through and be pumped through some very complex systems that not only stop the vehicle but often work with the stability and handling components, individual wheel braking, etc. It needs to be in top condition any moisture or bits of crap no matter how slight can cause corrosion of some very tight tolerances. Most garages will carry out a "boil test" if you ask, just a small sample from the master cylinder is put in a tester then if you try the same test with new fluid you will be surprised at the difference. Just a note re sealed systems. Many years ago speaking to a Girling engineer about the same thing he showed me how the fluid would even draw moisture through the rubber flexpipes to the wheels which are constantly sprayed with water in the wet. Fitting Aeoraquip hoses with teflon liners greatly if not entirely reduces this.
Like most safety systems that are used you don’t think about them till you need them most. Old brake fluid will boil at a much lower temp. If you want to find out how that effects you just wait till you come across standing traffic on a motorway and hit the brakes at 70+ and the pedal starts to slowly go to the floor as the brakes get very hot very quickly..
As you probably guess I change mine at least every 2 years, its time not mileage that’s the issue.
I do have the experience, 40+ years and enough qualifications to fill a couple of sheets of A4 and what The Grey One is spot on.
 
Having owned dozens of cars over a number of decades I never recall once having the brake fluid changed as part of a service or recall seeing this procedure in the service specs.

Most car makers have, over the years, deleted many things from the basic service schedule. Many stopped including a check on front brake wear years ago, relying instead on the wear warning lamps. When Citroen did this we as an independent specialist refused to carry out a service without checking the brakes. The driving force behind these changes was to reduce the perceived servicing costs at the point of sale. The fact is I doubt you will find a car or bike maker who does not say somewhere that brake fluid should be changed at regular intervals. Most vehicles carry a warning to this effect moulded into the brake fluid reservoir cap.

If you have paid for regular maintenance and the fluid has not been changed or at very least you were not asked to approve the change, then I would say the garages have failed in their duty of care.

It will have been there in the documentation, if you doubt that I would respectfully suggest that you write to the company concerned for clarification.

John
 
So you looked it up then! Show your evidence please. I would really like to know, is it some giant conspiracy involving all the manufacturers, every major motoring organisation,the scientific establishment, National testing authorities such as ours here in Austria? If they are all in it together I would like to know so do please tell.

All of these say the fluid should be changed and explain why, strangely enough they all give the same explanation. Tell me why they are wrong and you are right.

John
Because it's a nice little earner!... show me the evidence to support this 'Theory' as I've already said, it's an arse covering exercise..
What do you suppose would happen to a ten year old vehicle with the original brake fluid still being used? (NOT the theory..)
 
This is a bit of an odd debate. It's a recognised fact that brake fluid is hygroscopic. The water which it absorbs lowers the boiling point of the fluid and in conditions when you're using the brakes a lot, it can boil, leaving you with no brake pedal or lever. Even non hygroscopic silicon fluid doesn't get round the issue as water still gets into the system and collects at the lowest point where it can initiate corrosion. I've changed the brake fluid on every bike and car I've ever owned every two years.
 
Cheers for that i haven't got a gs911 yet but want to swap the fluid, in your experiance how much extra fluid is removed using gs 911 as opposed to not having one connected or is this the only way to do it

I don't know to be honest. On the GS I used about 200ml I would guess, maybe less but I tend to overdo it to be safe. After the GS911 modulator test you have to bleed the brakes again to get any air out. I would assume that without this test the fluid in the modulators doesn't get changed. Anyway, I've done both bikes so all's good for another two years.
 
Because it's a nice little earner!... show me the evidence to support this 'Theory' as I've already said, it's an arse covering exercise..
What do you suppose would happen to a ten year old vehicle with the original brake fluid still being used? (NOT the theory..)

Oil changes are "a nice little earner" too, what's your take on those?

The answer to your last question is Not a lot until the brakes are really put to the test, bring it over here and thrash it over the Grossglockner and see what happens. Or when after the brakes have got hot, maybe fully loaded on winding twisty roads ( you do have some over there) when a child dashes out and the brakes don't work as expected then the driver of the ten year without a fluid change car might just regret it.

Of course they have to cover themselves but why would they bother to publish a replacement interval if there was no issue?. You can argue about the length of that interval but not the need for replacing when the fluid is contaminated. In my garage we ignored the time interval and simply tested the fluid on every service, replacing when it needed rather than just when someone says so.

I am afraid you are the one with a theory not me. The fact that people drive around in vehicles with old fluid proves very little.

John
 


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