Cornering Technique: Enduro vs Road Bike

[bris_mac]

Hi All,

Apologies if this is not the right section, or if this is answered elsewhere. Please feel free to point me at it if it has. Anyway.

I've just bought myself a new F800GS. Only had it for about 10 days and 400 miles so far. My previous ( and now reserve bike) is a 2006 Kwak Z1000 .

I ride everyday, all year, and consider myself a fairly competent rider, but all my experience has been on 'normal' road oriented machines. Standard geometry, suspension, 17" wheels, sports touring rubber etc. I've only ridden off road very briefly, and that was on small light proper off-road machines.


I've got quite happy with the feel of the GS on sweeping roads, and reasonably comfortable on twisties. The problem I'm having is with sharp corners, most typically the sort where a B road or single track road turns a dead 90 degrees, but also small mini roundabouts, and less extreme examples of the first etc.
Normally I'd just ride up to those at the appropriate speed, flop the bike on its side, smoothly round the corner then lift it back up again.
But on the GS what happens is that I approach them at the appropriate speed, start to get the fear that this'll never work, slow down some more, then limp dangerously round the corner on a jerky throttle, barely leant over at all.

There are quite a few different variables in play: The height, riding position, 21" wheel, soft long travel forks, unknown tyres, twin engine braking and low down torque. I don't know exactly what it is, but some combination of this is making me ride like a complete beginner in these situations. I'm heading for a classic newbie style, target fixation, lock the brakes, straightline the corner accident if I don't sort this out.

Obviously a lot of this problem is just due to unfamiliarity with the bike causing lack of confidence, but I was wondering if there was something I should consciously be doing differently, some secret to riding tall bikes on funny tyres

Feel a bit foolish asking this, but I've shocked myself at just how poor I am at this one particular aspect.
Any suggestions welcome.

 

[BurtieBoy]

Sounds like you are going into the corner in too low a gear. Try it in a lower gear and pick the bike up on the throttle.

Should be similar to your road bike - albeit a bit slower turning.

I'd get out and practice a bit.

Or join us on a trail ride to brush up on slow riding.

Burt

 

[Blind Lemon Ade]

I've just bought an F650GS, and it's an issue I've been struggling with...

I find the throttle is very on/off going from closed to (partially) open, and the engine kicks in with a jerk. This seems different to carb'ed bikes, and one of the first things I noticed on the test ride.

So, it's difficult to feed in the power gently from a closed throttle, you get too much power, then shut off again (wobble) open up (jerk) etc...

I'm trying to smooth it out by using the rear brake round a slow turn, to hold the bike back a little. An alternative would be to dial in a few more revs, then slip the clutch, like a TZ250 going round Mallory hairpin

It reminds me of my Ducati 900 with 40mm Del'Orto carbs - the engine sucked the throttle slides shut in the turn, until you forced them open with a mighty handful of throttle - jerk!

How d'you blokes cope with it ?

(The 650 XCountry I borrowed didn't do this at all, despite being efi (I presume), p'raps because it's only a single?)

 

[Maxxx]

I'd agree with Burt - you need to keep the revs quite high - the centrifugal force keeps the bike upright and you won't feel like it's going to fall over - the higher center of gravity will make you feel more vunerable than a roadbike or sports bike at slow speed.

If you've learnt in the bush / off road then you ride with two fingers on the clutch and control slow speed manoevers with clutch / brake combination - not something I've thought of conciously until you asked the question .........

 

[Farmboy]

not an easy one to answer for me as all my bikes have been carbed and never suffered from jerky throttles.

But My Africa Twin is mighty tall and a touch top heavy compared to modern bikes the best way for me is to use lots of rear brake into and through the corner and use the throttle and clutch to balance it round at a fastish speed, if it feel its gonna fall inwards i just let off the clutch but never the brake.

All the time looking miles round the corner and pushing the bars down to the floor but keeping the body upright and the elbows out.

You can go round really tight and at a decent speed this way IMO

Same as turning tight offroad on the loose stuff, it works for me.

there is a good tutorial on one of the enduro websites if you search in offroad or enduro techniques

 

[bris_mac]

Cheers all.

Couple of things to think about there.

I'm quite happy & accustomed to using clutch and rear brake for slow speed manoeuvring, but wouldn't have normally considered it for the type of corners I was talking about. Well, maybe dragging a bit of rear, but not heavily.

Think I just need to find a typical corner of this sort and spend some time doing repeated runs at it. Try a few different combinations. Weight forward, revs up, trailing the rear brake. Take it from there.


To be honest, I think it just a confidence thing. The different feel is causing me to be more anxious than I should be.

 

[cookie]

To be honest, I think it just a confidence thing.

me too.

 

[Wingit]

I went from Honda VFR to R1200GS. Yes they feel very different. I have had a go on the F800GS at the BMW offroad skills centre down in the Brecon Beacons. I found the fueling a bit on/off in the lower gears but not so that it was a problem. I would suggest that if you are developing a bit of a mental block regarding tackling obstacles then maybe slow your entry speed slightly whilst you ascertain what is making you feel uncomfortable. Practice smoothing out the maneuvers at a slightly slower speed then build up the pace when you are happy with it. If the throttle feels snatchy in first and second try and move up to the next gear as and when speed will allow and use a bit of clutch feather if necessary to help things along. With these nice torquey engines you can often get away with a higher gear than you would think and then the power delivery instantly becomes more civilised (obviously you have to be in the relevant gear to accelerate out of corners, roundabouts etc.)
Trust the bike and don't try to ride it any differently to your road bike. It will respond adequately and will ultimately be easier to ride than your other bike.
Lastly... have you got knobbly tires fitted? If so, I find that when you roll into turns on knobbly tires they feel like they want to continue rolling in unlike road tires which seem to find a balance point. It might be just psychological I don't know. Anyway, if you've got knobbly tires and you are not getting on with them then consider some road oriented rubber.

Any or all of the above may not be applicable to your problem but I hope some small part of it may be of use.

Ken.

 

[Bem]

Hi All,

The problem I'm having is with sharp corners, most typically the sort where a B road or single track road turns a dead 90 degrees, but also small mini roundabouts, and less extreme examples of the first etc.
Normally I'd just ride up to those at the appropriate speed, flop the bike on its side, smoothly round the corner then lift it back up again.
But on the GS what happens is that I approach them at the appropriate speed, start to get the fear that this'll never work, slow down some more, then limp dangerously round the corner on a jerky throttle, barely leant over at all.


Obviously a lot of this problem is just due to unfamiliarity with the bike causing lack of confidence, but I was wondering if there was something I should consciously be doing differently, some secret to riding tall bikes on funny tyres

Any suggestions welcome.

Can I respectfully suggest you take the suggestions already made re. clutch/back brake and practice in an empty car park, pref one with markings so that you can "simulate" the corner without having the fixed obstruction to consider, removing the Target Fixation etc? To some it might sound a little basic but thats where good bike control come from, knowing what control to operate and when. Bit like my 90 year old grandma making cakes, she "just knew" how much to add and when, but based on a lifetimes experience.

 

[Klanky]

I had the same probs when I first got the 800, it felt unusually tall to me (my first big trailie type bike) and was a bit of a handful around mini roundabouts. I always felt the bloody thing was on the verge of falling over..........

I tend to deal with them the same way as Farmboy, keep the speed up, use the back brake/clutch and push the bike down hard whilst remaining upright. Works a treat. You can get it really tight.

In a nutshell, you're probably right about it being a 'confidence' issue, the more you get used to the bike's handling characteristics, the more the problem will go away.

 

[BOSERO]

I am having the same problem. Have a Ducati Superbike and recently got an HP2 Enduro. Am having problems with tight turns. I have been practicing figure 8s and noticed that it is easier to push bike down and put the crack of my bum on the outer edge of the seat... allows for tighter turns at some speed. But for really slow tight turns I notice that standing on the bike and putting weight on the inner foot peg makes the task easier (still find it difficult though). More practice will surely help in my case.

 

[James Bryan]

At the risk of stating the obvious

"Trail" and "dual purpose" bikes are something of a compromise and in attempting to meet the divergent demands of two, separate disciplines, can sometimes present difficulties in both of their fields of operation. Difficulties that would not arise were you to be riding an off-road bike in the dirt, or a road bike on tarmac.

These compromise difficulties can be somewhat alarming when first encountered, particularly when the rider is experienced and competent in another field of bike riding. Used to one way of riding and interpreting the feedback from a particular bike/type of bike, the rider becomes uncertain and loses the confidence they built up over many years riding.

Now, when you add in the vagaries of a compromise tyre - eg TKC80s - you have yet another complicating factor added to the mix! Off-road tyres, even TKC80s have small, relatively long blocks, which "walk" when ridden through tarmac bends - leading to the experienced road rider "feeling", or interpreting the slight movement as the tyre starting to slide or "tuck". Not so! The tyre has merely been designed to do a different job in a different set of circumstances, and is coping in its own way with parameters outwith its usual scope. But once the rider becomes familiar with their new bikes' characteristics, confidence returns and "liberties" once more are taken! I once followed a friend of mine up through the spine of Wales using fast open roads, he was on a 650 shod with TKC80s & fully loaded with Zegas, camping gear etc. etc. It was all I could do to keep up with him, he conserved speed, rarely touched the brakes and threw that Dakar into bends as if the bike was glued to the road.

The point here was that Gary was experienced both as a road and off-road rider and was able to correctly assess the messages he was getting from the bike, and had learned to trust that assessment.

So, I would suggest that those unfamiliar with riding off-road might benefit from getting out there and getting dirty. Learn the advantages and disadvantages of your new bike, and explore the different techniques required by a long travel, "softly" suspended, tall, light, punchy, bike. Those techniques work best off tarmac and are best explored initially there. Once acquired they can be usefully transferred to the road to great advantage - DJ being perhaps a prime example of a road racer who used his off-road skills to startling effect!

Obvious sermon over, and apologies to those who were bored by my lecture.

All the best, Jim.

 

[retroman]

Are you counter-steering into the bend? I.E. slightly turning the bars the opposite way to the direction of the bend, 'Speedway' style? On a GS this really helps you to drop into the bend, and once mastered is great fun I found my 1150 a bit of a struggle until I discovered the joy of the counter-steer ...

 

[BOSERO]

"Trail" and "dual purpose" bikes are something of a compromise and in attempting to meet the divergent demands of two, separate disciplines, can sometimes present difficulties in both of their fields of operation. Difficulties that would not arise were you to be riding an off-road bike in the dirt, or a road bike on tarmac.

These compromise difficulties can be somewhat alarming when first encountered, particularly when the rider is experienced and competent in another field of bike riding. Used to one way of riding and interpreting the feedback from a particular bike/type of bike, the rider becomes uncertain and loses the confidence they built up over many years riding.

Now, when you add in the vagaries of a compromise tyre - eg TKC80s - you have yet another complicating factor added to the mix! Off-road tyres, even TKC80s have small, relatively long blocks, which "walk" when ridden through tarmac bends - leading to the experienced road rider "feeling", or interpreting the slight movement as the tyre starting to slide or "tuck". Not so! The tyre has merely been designed to do a different job in a different set of circumstances, and is coping in its own way with parameters outwith its usual scope. But once the rider becomes familiar with their new bikes' characteristics, confidence returns and "liberties" once more are taken! I once followed a friend of mine up through the spine of Wales using fast open roads, he was on a 650 shod with TKC80s & fully loaded with Zegas, camping gear etc. etc. It was all I could do to keep up with him, he conserved speed, rarely touched the brakes and threw that Dakar into bends as if the bike was glued to the road.

The point here was that Gary was experienced both as a road and off-road rider and was able to correctly assess the messages he was getting from the bike, and had learned to trust that assessment.

So, I would suggest that those unfamiliar with riding off-road might benefit from getting out there and getting dirty. Learn the advantages and disadvantages of your new bike, and explore the different techniques required by a long travel, "softly" suspended, tall, light, punchy, bike. Those techniques work best off tarmac and are best explored initially there. Once acquired they can be usefully transferred to the road to great advantage - DJ being perhaps a prime example of a road racer who used his off-road skills to startling effect!

Obvious sermon over, and apologies to those who were bored by my lecture.

All the best, Jim.

Very well said. Very logical too. Will try to do dirt asap. Hope learning curve will be a short one.

 

[Dave Ett]

I've just bought an F650GS, and it's an issue I've been struggling with...

I find the throttle is very on/off going from closed to (partially) open, and the engine kicks in with a jerk.

Turn your tickover up to about 1500rpm. Seriously. This will prevent the bike stopping the instant you close the throttle, and prevent that off / on jerk.

It's a trick I learned track racing, and I applied it yesterday when going off road for the first time. Made it possible to trickle along on a closed throttle, then smoothly accelerate when needed, rather than kangaroo my way into the hedge.

Easiest way to do it is to wind out the adjuster on the throttle end of the cable. You might find 1500 too much, so a bit of jiggery pokery will find the optimum for you.

As an aside, mine then made a lot of popping on the over-run.

 

[bris_mac]

Cheers again for all the comments.

Managed to put a few more miles on the bike, with two results:
1) I've realised most of the problem I was feeling was due to the responsive throttle / low down torque / engine braking. The height, geometry & suspension were just exaggerating the issue. Going in one gear higher and being more inclined to use the rear brake is a help here.
2) The situation is much improved. Still not 100% happy with the slowest corners yet, but acceptable. A combination of more miles plus the technique suggestions above.

Crossed over the old bridge and went for a quick loop round the Wye Valley and Forest of Dean this evening. The route chosen as it has a good number of these tight corners, but is also a very nice little run out. Much smoother on the tight bits.

Also nice to see that the bike apparently produces its own petrol. Computer was showing miles to go as >104 when I set off. 70 miles later it's showing >109 . Magic .

 

[Buz]

Crossed over the old bridge and went for a quick loop round the Wye Valley and Forest of Dean this evening. The route chosen as it has a good number of these tight corners, but is also a very nice little run out. Much smoother on the tight bits.

Thats the route i like to take, slightly different as i'm the Cinderford end of the Forest but the Wye Valley section is lovely, most seem to stop off at Tintern Abbey for a 'fag break' especially on a Sunday afternoon

 

[Otwayrider]

My mistakes

There is so much good advice here I am reluctant to add anything. Maybe what I did wrong and how I solved it might help.
I bought a GS1200 a couple of years ago. Prior to that I had a 1200 Cruiser (Crappy bike) and before that a Husky 610TE.
Fortunately I live on the Great Ocean Road in Australia. The GOR has miles of corners with no straights in between so you can get into a rhythm. It still took me a 1,000 miles before I felt part of the bike.

Problem 1/. There was slack in the throttle cable such that it need to be wound on a few degrees before anything happened, resulting in jerky application of power. As someone has previously advised, 'Wind the idle up to 1500rpm' would solve this. Not knowing this I just adjusted the thumbwheel on the cable beneath the twist grip until no slack was evident. It solved the jerky application of initial power and also made the gear changes much smoother.
Problem 2/. Being a dirt bike rider I just wasn't comfortable with the lean angles that the GS seemed to be happy with. Having all those GOR continuous 3000 rpm, 4th gear corners to experiment, I found the solution when I was running wide in a corner and my underpants were becoming damp, was to PUSH GENTLY ON THE INSIDE HANDLE BAR and the bike just dropped in and run beautifully through the corner. As also mentioned by someone else, dropping your bum or even leaning your upper body into the corner also helps.
Problem 3/. Braking at low speed (so wiping off still MORE speed) meant that if the lean angle remained constant the bike would naturally want to fall over. So I determined to get the speed right at entry and keep the speed constant with a smidge of power increase.

Conclusion: Sharp slow turns are the hardest, particularly if you have to look right for traffic and suddenly brake. So find a road with corners of consistent radius and run up and down until the bike fits like a glove. Then move on to roads low and high speed corners. Or come down under in March, watch Casey at Phillip Island and then hire a GS and do the GOR.
http://motorcycleparadise.blogspot.com/2007/11/australias-best-motorcycle-roads-gor.html
Pete.

 

[Hustler]

And welcome to the site Otwayrider.

 

[Otwayrider]

Thank you.

Thanks for having me.
It is an excellent site.

Pete.