Cortina to Ulm or vice-versa

[John Armstrong]

Anyone gone from Cortina via the Timmelsjoch and Hanntenjoch passes and have a real journey time? I know what Mapsource etc calculate, but they seem to have difficulty in giving meaningful results in hills, especially if you're on a bike.

Attached is one thought on the route I'd be taking. If it makes any difference it'll be at the end of June on a Thursday.

TVMIA

 

[Bearloe]

Anyone gone from Cortina via the Timmelsjoch and Hanntenjoch passes and have a real journey time? I know what Mapsource etc calculate, but they seem to have difficulty in giving meaningful results in hills, especially if you're on a bike.

John,
I haven't travelled this route, but I know that Mapsource calculates fairly unreliably in the mountains. I had to learn this a few years ago, when my unit insisted on 5 hours, and we returned after an 11-hour ride.
So, estimating from this experience I'd double the Mapsource time arriving after about 12 hours.

Anyway, I'm intested in other people's experience.

Bearloe

 

[John Armstrong]

The "problem" seems that it has difficulty in factoring speeds around corners and in particular hairpins. It appears to me that it looks at the exact distance and uses the roads attributes speed to give the time taken, ignoring that you need to slow down (usually) for hairpins.

 

[trangwales]

Hi John
I've done sections of this - mostly in the van when climbing, but parts on the bike this last year. 6 hours is ambitious. I'm not a fast rider / driver.
Cortina to Dobbiaco - smaller road, quite fast, some slow traffic. About an hour, maybe less
Dobbiaco to the A13 (Brenner Pass road) good road, lots of traffic, small villages - about 2 hours
The section from Vippiteno I don't know - but the roads around Merano can be a nightmare - lots of small roads and poor drivers.
I've come from Landeck via Umhausen - good mountain road, quiet, but about 2-3 hours I think - I was heading for Madonna di Campiglio so found loads of small roads on the southern section.
I'd expect the section up to Ulm to be about 3 hours.

I've given up with the timings on my Garmin - If I go down through mid-Wales, Garmin time plus 1 hour is about right - that's over 150 miles.

You've picked a good route, though. Have fun!!

 

[John Armstrong]

You've picked a good route, though. Have fun!!

Thanks for the timings you have

Sort of picked itself. Don't really want to do the Brenner pass with all of its Dutch camper and caravans, and the same for the Fern pass ......

Like to include the passes to the west of Cortina, but then that makes it over 7 hours in the saddle I try to aim for 5 hours the SWMBO doesn't get too upset either.

 

[Wapping]

I've given up with the timings on my Garmin - If I go down through mid-Wales, Garmin time plus 1 hour is about right - that's over 150 miles.!

It's possible that you and others needs to reset your presumed average speeds in Mapsouce.

Go to: Edit ---> Preferences ---> Routing tab ---> Driving Speeds button. You can create the average speeds you will do, or will think you will do.

It should be very accurate, it is only a factor of the speed you have told it over an exactly known distance.

For instance, a 100 mile journey at a given speed in Mapsouce of 50 mph will take two hours, no question.

But if, in the real world, you stop, take pictures, have a meal break or simply do not ride at 50 mph consistently, the estimation will fail. For example, if you have a 200 mile journey and ride at a consistent 50 mph, you will complete it in four hours. But, if you stop for an hour for lunch in the middle, it will take you five hours. Your real average speed will have dropped from 50 mph to 40 mph.

Put 50 mph into Mapsource and it will tell you a journey of four hours.

Put 40 mph into Mapsource and it will tell you a journey of five hours.

Only you know your likely and actual driving speeds.

 

[Wapping]

Thanks for the timings you have

Sort of picked itself. Don't really want to do the Brenner pass with all of its Dutch camper and caravans, and the same for the Fern pass ......

Like to include the passes to the west of Cortina, but then that makes it over 7 hours in the saddle I try to aim for 5 hours the SWMBO doesn't get too upset either.

John,

Get yourself a copy of Book - the timings are pretty accurate and the routes all good. I think there may be a later edition than the one shown here.

Also have a look at: Roads

You may also find it worthwhile having a look at the Green Michelin guides for the area. These have suggested routes, with maps and things to see, along with very accurate drive time estimates.

I can guess why your estimates on time are down, perhaps. Not wanting to spend time on the bike (fine) and SWMBO (finer still) - possibly frequent stops (fine, too) - and not overtaking slow camper vans....

 

[Bearloe]

It's possible that you and others needs to reset your presumed average speeds in Mapsouce.

Hello Wapping,
carefully setting your average speed in Mapsource helps for normal riding, but I have had the experience that Mapsource cannot adequately calculate Alpine routes.

First of all, you cannot go 60 mph riding for example the Timmelsjoch; then you have to slow down to negotiate hairpins, you switch back a number of times - which slows you down, too.

Of course, one's personal speed and mastery of riding plays a role, too. So it's not easy to generalize.

Bearloe

 

[John Armstrong]

John,

Get yourself a copy of Book - the timings are pretty accurate and the routes all good.

Also have a look at: Roads

You may also find it worthwhile having a look at the Green Michelin guides for the area. These have suggested routes, with maps and things to see, along with very accurate drive time estimates.

Have the 4th edition of John Hermmans book as the 3rd was to falling to pieces

Alpineroads.com is one of my favorites

Not thought about Michelin Green guides, but have used viamichelin amongst others to try and work out realistic timings.

 

[trangwales]

It's possible that you and others needs to reset your presumed average speeds in Mapsouce.

Thanks Wapping ... I've reset the times on the system, but I still add + 1 hour. This is for tractors, lorries, caravans etc. Especially in mid Wales, and Cheshire .. and Shropshire. Everyone who lives there is a tractor driver at heart!

Thanks for the book recommendations - didn't know about those ...

 

[trangwales]

Like to include the passes to the west of Cortina, but then that makes it over 7 hours in the saddle I try to aim for 5 hours the SWMBO doesn't get too upset either.

I had a good run through the Alps this year - left at about 0830 Andermatt, over the Oberalp, then across to the Stelvio and arrived at Colfosco (Corvara) about 1800. A long day but immensely satisfying, and including some SatNav diversions. The computer techies at work call it a PICNIC issue (Problem In Chair Not In Computer) - I'd transferred the route from MS Autoroute as I hadn't mastered MapSource then ...

 

[John Armstrong]

Just done some recalculations from splitting the route and it was almost an hour shorter Re-recalculated and the missing time came back

Personally I think there may be a bug as last night it reckoned on 175 miles taking 2 hours on a motorway, with the default speed of 67mph for motorways set

 

[Wapping]

Hello Wapping,
carefully setting your average speed in Mapsource helps for normal riding, but I have had the experience that Mapsource cannot adequately calculate Alpine routes.

First of all, you cannot go 60 mph riding for example the Timmelsjoch; then you have to slow down to negotiate hairpins, you switch back a number of times - which slows you down, too.

Of course, one's personal speed and mastery of riding plays a role, too. So it's not easy to generalize.

Bearloe

That is true but the data behind the routes is getting better and, when all is said and done it's only a good as the data fed in.

A vast proportion of the updates (and why they are moving onto DVD's) is not that the roads change physically that much but because Mapsource now 'know' more about the the type of road. For instance, it won't be so long before Mapsource 'knows' that the Gross Ballocks pass is more like a 15 mph town road, rather than an 80 mph country road and will adjust accordingly. Another problem is the avoidance of U-turns setting. Mapsouce can sometimes read very sharp hairpins as U-turns and route you around them....

You can, of course, simply plot a journey across just the pass and enter in whatever speed you think you will do. For instance, if you think your real average speed over the 10 miles of the Gross Ballocks pass is going to be 5 mph - by the time you have stopped to admire views, battled with camper vans and had a coffee - it will take two hours. Not, the 15 minutes it might take you non-stop on a main road. Then simply string several separate calculations together. It all just depends on how accurate, or inaccurate, one wants to be.

Or, easier still, know from experience and don't worry about the device's calculations at all. Looking at a map also helps. If it is small scale and there are lots of wiggles, it's tight nad may well be slowish.

 

[Wapping]

Thanks Wapping ... I've reset the times on the system, but I still add + 1 hour. This is for tractors, lorries, caravans etc. Especially in mid Wales, and Cheshire .. and Shropshire. Everyone who lives there is a tractor driver at heart!

Thanks for the book recommendations - didn't know about those ...

It's a good book, for sure. A bit pricey as it's an American import but worth every penny.

The Michelin Green guides are first class. If you don't want to buy one for just one holiday, borrow it from a library or use their photocopier or scribble notes by hand.

You can correct the Wales effect. Just drop the speeds again in Mapsource. If you have 50 mph as the pre-determined average, calculating an hour to do 50 miles but it always takes two hours, drop the pre-determined average speed to 25 mph. Problem solved.

Just don't forget to change it when approaching civilisation.

My experience is that people think they go faster than they do in reality. Or they forget that when they are not moving, their average speed drops to zero.

 

[Wapping]

Just done some recalculations from splitting the route and it was almost an hour shorter Re-recalculated and the missing time came back

Personally I think there may be a bug as last night it reckoned on 175 miles taking 2 hours on a motorway, with the default speed of 67mph for motorways set

That's odd.

Mapsouce is pretty good at simple, one type of road, speed calculations. Often it's simple operator error that creeps in. I'm as guilty as the next man, forgetting sometimes that I re-set my preferences a week ago, or not noticing that I had set it to avoid seasonal passes, or that it's not a motorway all the way..... or I have simply clicked somewhere along the line on the opposing carriageway, so creating a bloody big diversion....

 

[John Armstrong]

That's odd.

Here's the route, on the M6 it's saying 53.7 miles in 22:24 for leg 18 or 144mph approximately.

Take out that bit and it's 115 miles in 1 hour 30 mins which I could believe. Instead of 168 miles in 1 hour 53 mins.

 

[Wapping]

That is odd.

I have replotted it, near enough, simply starting just past the Tesco petrol station and finishing at near the spot in Cirencester.

My route is in green.

I am using Mapsource NT 2009:1. I also re-ran it in earlier versions.

168 miles in 1 hour, 53 minutes and 40 seconds, which is near enough 84 mph average.

I have rechecked my pre-determined average speed settings:

67 motorways

58 major highways

45 other highways

35 on collector roads

25 on residential streets

So it should be impossible to go over 67 mph in any average calculation of time.

I will send it to Garmin to see what they say.

Richard

 

[John Armstrong]

Tried inverting both your routes with the same effect. Also tried a route on the problem bit of the M6 south of the M56 to north of the M54, 55 miles in 36 mins

 

[Wapping]

I have never noticed it being so far out before.

I have contacted Garmin by email along with the route file, to see what they say.

I'll post it up if and when I hear.

 

[John Armstrong]

BTW I'm using CN 2009 NT, haven't got 2008 to see if too likes 90mph on that stretch of the M6. Which is an obvious problem, as how often do you exceed 40mph on it