Cymarc Tuning

Tom, I have to say I agree that my TC feels so much better having had the AF XIED units fitted mentioned by Mistacat. About the same price as the Easy option once import duties and post paid for. Simple to fit and remove. So anything that alters the AF ratio clearly delivers a marked improvement in power delivery and smoothness....makes allot of sense to me.

Downside of the AF XIED units is that they come from the US so probably little in the way of consumer protection, unlike Mark plus no tea and biscuits.
 
Don't be so defensive, Tom.
No-one is saying it isn't a good system. The issues are about ECU adaption and useless silencers. :cool:
If it's anything like the same as an AF-XiED, expect it to improve even more. Up to a thousand miles to fully adapt.
 
My question concerns the ECU map. Geoff at Hilltop says he installs a new map which is a large part of why he gets his widely acknowledge good results.

The AF-XIED corrects the fuelling but retains the original map. On face value, the Hilltop option or Mark's new ECU should be the better option - I think we all know the OEM map has its problems. But does it really?

I would love to see them all run side by side. OEM map with AF-XIED. Hooton ECU and Hilltop remapped ECU.

Even using different bikes it should be possible to deduce which is the best way to go.

I would also like to see how the engine performs with a car engine style plenum chamber, single throttle body and inlet port injectors. That would remove what seem to be not a few design compromises. throttle balance, air flow balance and I'm sure a few others.
 
Bendy toy said:
My question concerns the ECU map. Geoff at Hilltop says he installs a new map which is a large part of why he gets his widely acknowledge good results.

The AF-XIED corrects the fuelling but retains the original map. On face value, the Hilltop option or Mark's new ECU should be the better option - I think we all know the OEM map has its problems. But does it really?

I would love to see them all run side by side. OEM map with AF-XIED. Hooton ECU and Hilltop remapped ECU.

Even using different bikes it should be possible to deduce which is the best way to go.

I would also like to see how the engine performs with a car engine style plenum chamber, single throttle body and inlet port injectors. That would remove what seem to be not a few design compromises. throttle balance, air flow balance and I'm sure a few others.
Click to expand...

Well we`ve seen Hooton ECU V Hilltop remap!
 
The point with all this is whether you have had Marks upgrade, a Power Commander, a Hilltop or any other ECU upgrade, as long as your bike goes better that's all that matters.

I have a PC111 on mine and my bike goes really well. To be honest, I couldn't really give a rats arse about the magic involved.
 
Well on my last two GSA TCs I have had a PCV, Hilltop Remap and the AF XIED. All did the job but I would bin the PCV over the other two. More expensive outlay (with Dyno)' lots of cables, does away with th o2 sensor and questionable wet weather connections and no discernible performance advantage.

Remap is great and provides a bit more punch than the AF units in my albeit subjective view....especially around the 4500 rpm hole BUT the AF units provide a much smoother ride....almost turbine like at 5000 rpm or 85ish mph in 6th.

My choice over the 3... the AF units as I can use them on later bikes or sell on. Also very easy to fit and proven technology (in the USA).....delivered to your door.
 
Sgt Bilco said:
The point with all this is whether you have had Marks upgrade, a Power Commander, a Hilltop or any other ECU upgrade, as long as your bike goes better that's all that matters.

I have a PC111 on mine and my bike goes really well. To be honest, I couldn't really give a rats arse about the magic involved.
Click to expand...

Well said


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Interesting thread guys.

Some points worth mentioning and some questions come to mind.

--There is little evidence that changing the silencer leads to meaningful additional leanness on our modern bikes. And if it did, either a Motronic or BMSK ECU is fully able to adapt to the changes. It takes several tanks of fuel at most. There is concrete evidence from measurements and reliable data to its effect reported by the GS-911.

--The stock fueling maps are really very well balanced and don't need to be altered. The problem with our bikes is that the stock map is anchored to the AFR of the stock O2 sensor, which is 14.7:1. If you alter the O2 and shift it to be a richer standard for the ECU you get better performance from idle to full throttle. The reason is that the adaptive values computed from the O2 get applied to every part of the fueling map.

--The stock spark advance maps are conservative to protect the engine and meet emission requirements. These can probably be improved, but no one has done a conclusive study.

--The technique of lambda shifting with an LC-1 or AF-XIED is 100% documented and in effect "Open Source", meaning the technique is freely documented for everyone to use.

--The Rapidbike implementation hasn't been described in this thread. What does it do? Does it alter the Closed Loop area of fueling, if so by how much. Does it alter the fueling maps, and if so in which areas and by how much? What is the claimed closed loop AFR? Has the spark advance been altered, and by how much? If the spark map was altered has the dwell map been compensated? These are a few of the questions that come to mind, more later.

Not everyone cares about this detail but many do.
 
People say the exhaust has no effect on the fuelling but I do wonder if this the case for the whole operating range, Geoff from Hilltop told me that he's seen bikes running extremely low air/fuel ratios - 19:1 and worse. At this level the exhaust gas can get to very high temperatures which can only affect the exhaust valve life. They were worst at low throttle settings which doesn't really fit if the AFR is anchored to the Lambda values.

To my mind if you plan to fit a free flow exhaust then do it before the bike is mapped or whatever then at least the ECU is running well within its operating rage rather than compensating and shifted to one side of it's range.
 
Bendy, Geoff is kidding you about 19:1. The engine won't run at that AFR. He may occasionally see that AFR on his dyno machine but it's an anomaly caused by a combination of coasting prior to starting the run and the location of his O2 probe. And you're correct, it doesn't really fit at low AFRs another sure sign it's wrong. On any BMW boxer with an O2 sensor the AFR is anchored to the O2 sensor value.

The other thing to note is the EGT exhaust gas temperature peaks at 14.7:1, which is right where our bikes run in stock condition. If you richen the mixture or lean it off, the exhaust gas gets cooler.

Lastly, the amount of compensation for exhausts is small, well within the 20% range of the ECU.
 
This is all getting a bit in depth now. So in simple terms for me it runs better than it did before the tune and slightly better than the hilltop bike mentioned in my previous posts. I am happy!! Maybe Mark will explain in more detail about how it works?
 
We're waiting with interest.
Seriously. I'm curious to find out what the Dimsport system does. Details have been a bit vague so far.
All we know is that it costs between £350 and £550 and Tom is pleased with the result.
 
So a quick question to rapidbike what is the closed loop afr range it supports. I ask this because many O2 "manipulators" don't actually control afr, they just stop closed loop at times.
 
Roger 04 RT said:
So a quick question to rapidbike what is the closed loop afr range it supports. I ask this because many O2 "manipulators" don't actually control afr, they just stop closed loop at times.
Click to expand...

I doubt they be able to give you a sensible answer.
It seems it's a bought in item and passed on with a price increase at every stage with no one able to say for sure, apart from the meaningless mumbo jumbo on the advertising blurb, what it actually does and how it does it . :D
 
To my experience and knowledge it`s up to around 6k on the boxer engines - anything above that then the Evo is needed - and both control the AFR
 
Mark, you're not helping your case.
I read that badly translated waffle a year ago when looking for an alternative to the PCV or a re map. Wasn't impressed then either.
Not doubting the effectiveness of the Dimsport system. It has been around for a while, although not common in the UK.
What is the difference between the 'Easy' system and the 'Evo' system? What are the benefits? How does it achieve them?
When you are charging up to £550 for a tuning system, I think these are fair questions.
 
Mark Hooton said:
here you go fella!

http://www.dimsport.it/en/rapidbike/technology/

ah, someone beat me to it..............
Click to expand...
Hi Mark.
It appears to me, from this literature that you would require one "easy unit" per lambda sensor, the translation is not very clear. So two units for a R1200.
If so are two units included in the £350.?
Is the AFR adjustable and between what parameters.
What diagnostics have you been using to collect your data after installation to verify the AFR . ?
Has the data collected been actual road conditions or simulated on a rolling road ?
 
Mistacat said:
Hi Mark.
It appears to me, from this literature that you would require one "easy unit" per lambda sensor, the translation is not very clear. So two units for a R1200.
If so are two units included in the £350.?
Is the AFR adjustable and between what parameters.
What diagnostics have you been using to collect your data after installation to verify the AFR . ?
Has the data collected been actual road conditions or simulated on a rolling road ?
Click to expand...

I`ll be back later with some more answers but for now:

One easy unit does both lambda sensors
AFR is adjustable
911 & Dimsport dealer software
Actual road conditions - up to 300 miles per session.
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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