Cymarc Tuning

[Mark Hooton]

Mark, you're not helping your case.
I read that badly translated waffle a year ago when looking for an alternative to the PCV or a re map. Wasn't impressed then either.
Not doubting the effectiveness of the Dimsport system. It has been around for a while, although not common in the UK.
What is the difference between the 'Easy' system and the 'Evo' system? What are the benefits? How does it achieve them?
When you are charging up to £550 for a tuning system, I think these are fair questions.

`......not helping my case`

Mmmmmm

I`ll answer your questions fella, with pleasure and as best I can, but just to be clear on something which I am sure you will agree with - I actually don`t have any `case` to help. We have a (very decent) biker here who has expressed a very positive result on a bit of kit and, very kindly, spoken well about the installer. I am sure we all support and encourage this (or any) positive opinion and, in some cases, it may actually be beneficial for other bikers to consider - even when it`s negative. I am keen to answer questions but it`s certainly not because I have any case `to help`.

Thank you for allowing me clear that up fella!


It`s also clear that you have a poor view of this kit based on your previous experience - "Wasn't impressed then either" I respect whatever reasons you may have for this jaded view and I hope that I can answer your questions and thereby stop any sniping and patronising posts you may feel are justified.

I think we also have to remember that some of us may not be as seemingly technically minded as you and, to quote Sgt Bilco "The point with all this is whether you have had Marks upgrade, a Power Commander, a Hilltop or any other ECU upgrade, as long as your bike goes better that's all that matters.

I have a PC111 on mine and my bike goes really well. To be honest, I couldn't really give a rats arse about the magic involved."

However, back to helping where I can to answer your questions as I suspect & hope that you are actually interested in this rather just any opportunity to snipe & patronise.

The difference between the Easy and Evo is quite significant and can be summarised as follows:

Easy just fits to Lambda sensors, Evo connects to crankshaft position sensor, lambda`s, Stock ECU, TPS & injectors.
Easy uses two adjustors (fuel ratio -3 to +3 and `setting` or trim 1 to 7), Evo has a much larger range of value adjustment.
Easy addresses fuelling within the closed loop range - Evo attends to the full rev range/power delivery curve.
Evo is auto - adaptive meaning that it is constantly changing the fuelling and other parameters as you ride i.e. the map is dynamic depending on ambient conditions - good eh?
Evo comes with user software so you can plug it into your laptop and see what`s going on. easy does not.
Evo supports quick shift sensor, multiple map management, RPM limiter raising & the elimination of any speed limiter.

The benefits are

Much better response and power delivery
Reduced if not fully eliminated snatching or hunting through poor OEM fuelling (due to harsher emission controls)

If you re-read Tom`s report he is very clear on the benefits so please don`t take it from me. I might have an ulterior commercial motive eh?

It achieves all this through dynamic software management or in the easy case simple and basic adjustment of the AFR within the closed loop range.
Hope this helps, please forgive me if any further time answering questions is limited - unless you wish to purchase one eh.

 

[oldnfat]

Mark...you forgot the tea and biscuits.....never forget the tea and biscuits!

On the main point....I think anything that puts the AFR where is should be will markedly improve performance. You pays your money and take your choice.

 

[Mark Hooton]

Mark...you forgot the tea and biscuits.....never forget the tea and biscuits!

On the main point....I think anything that puts the AFR where is should be will markedly improve performance. You pays your money and take your choice.

ha yes tea and biscuits - always a pleasure and I`m lucky enough to be able to do that (day job allowing)

And yes, ANYTHING (Hilltop, Black magic ECU`s, chips, remaps) anything that improves a lean AFR (damn those emission control geezers ) must be an improvement. And is actually, so let`s look at it as a good thing

And of course, if ya passing and want to try and see for yourself feel free to take my steed out

 

[Engineer]

I'm just praying Engineer doesn't pick up on this thread.

Helloooooooooo

 

[Mark Hooton]

Helloooooooooo

Ha, welcome! Long time no gibber hope u r ok fella

 

[cjw]

Just to add another unbiased and very untechnical view.
I’ve ridden about 8000 miles on my TC since it was “Hillltopped” and I’m extremely happy with it,its a much more faster and responsive bike than when it had the standard headers,cat,valve and silencer fitted,I've no complaints whatsoever with the set up.
I’ve ridden Tom’s bike “back to back” with my TC and can honestly say that his bike is more responsive and smoother than mine and if I had to choose between the two options,I’d be talking to Mark, in a nutshell,Hilltop is very very good,CYMARC is better!
Craig
(Tom’s dad)

 

[Engineer]

Ha, welcome! Long time no gibber hope u r ok fella

I am very well thanks - been busy holidaying to spend to much time on here recently - just to be uncharacteristically controversial for change I welcome any honest and open alternative to Hilltop Competition drives development forward

 

[Mark Hooton]

Hope the holiday was good geezer and I'm a MASSIVE supporter of competition - in my day job it keeps us sharp, I've seen too many companies get complacent and lose their edge.


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[Mark Hooton]

And thanks for the 'show' - too many of us would've been disappointed if you hadn't


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[Engineer]

And thanks for the 'show' - too many of us would've been disappointed if you hadn't


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It's good to know that most people look forward to my input on this esteemed website

 

[cherokee]

Perhaps all you guys should trade for an mt10 or put crosser bars on an R1.....

 

[Mark Hooton]

Guys for some clarification `Thorr` has put a post on the water cooled section regarding tuning which makes interesting reading. I`m quoting what he has said in the post below............

I have to confess I'm not a regular contributor to this site (My loss I know), but I do skim through various threads which either spark or captivate my interest. This thread certainly has, along with a similar post on the 1200 gs hexhead thread about Cymarc tuning!!

Having owned more BMW bikes than I would ever admit to anyone, esp. to my ex wife's lawyer.

Over the past few years we have all seen the advent of fuel injection, catalytic converters, exhaust flaps and motronic engine management systems with limp home features on our 1200 bmw boxer derived engines. In the main this appears to have been a positive thing esp in terms of reliability, performance, emission's and fuel economy.

However since 2004 every bike I've owned has suffered from some sort of fuelling issue and yes I accept some more so than others!.

Like most of us I have spoken with numerous bmw technicians about the engine glitches and been told 'it's because of the emission restrictions in the closed loop...we'll try the latest software update for you but if that doesn't work there isn't a lot we can do' 'sir'.

In relation to one brand new bike I had the fuelling problem was so bad it was like riding a buckaroo (Nightmare on damp, greasy and diesel infused roundabouts - you know what I mean we've all clenched our butt cheeks and feathred the clutch lever for all our worth!) after much head scratching and 'two'ing and frow'ing' between the dealer, bmw uk and the bofins in Germany; and after less than 1000 miles and 3 months (most of which was spent in the workshop) the bike was eventually taken back and I was given a full refund.

I sincerely hope the thing wasn't put back into circulation via the used bike system and moved onto some other poor unsuspecting soul!!

So having endured a mis-spent youth riding off road scrambler bikes at national level, obtaining an HND in motor vehicle electrical engineering and spent the last few decades polishing my arse in an office and explaining how good I thought I once was, developing a taste for foreign holidays, high maintenance women, quality bikes and craft beers (Sound familiar?) I decided I ought to try and understand the problem and look for a potential fix.

In a essence there is a fundamental principle;

A modern 4 stroke petrol engine works best when the Air Fuel Ratio (AFR) is @ 13.4 -13.8 : 1.

The problem is;

Emission regulations effectively force manufacturers to continually conform to a set of pre determined AFR parameters taken at different points in the rev range to achieve the pre determined parameters (These relate not only to fuelling but also vapours, noise and exhaust restrictions 'cats, baffles and flaps' ooher missus).

In relation to bikes you may recognise these as EU 1, 2 ,3 & by 2017 for motorcycles EU 4!! The new bmw bikes which will soon start coming through have ecu's which have even stricter emission restrictions placed on them, with the addition anti tamper notification and carbon fuel evaporation devices fitted.

Every time a new set of EU regulations come out it effectively challenges the manufacturers to conform to the new rules which are effectively far leaner in the measured areas than the fundamental best AFR dictates.

When I say challenges I mean really challenges, cars are now on variant EU6!! - This tightening of the emissions noose is what led to the VW/Audi emissions scandal where the manufacturer modified the vehicles ecu, so on paper and in laboratory conditions they passed strict emissions muster. Before anyone jumps to assassinate me via their keyboard I accept this related mainly to diesels but hopefully you can see where this is going.

These AFR ratios are taken at different points within an engines rev range and are most noticeably measured in what is called the closed loop. i.e from tick over to about 5000rpm.

The symptoms;

If the regulation states that the engine must conform to strict emissions readings in say 3 places in the closed loop area, then to meet the co2, oxides and hydrocarbon readings the manufacturers must play the game and induce an AFR which meets the pre determined standard (effectively a lean spot), to conform so they can obtain their certificate of conformity and be authorised to sell cars in Europe a least - sometimes known as the homologation process.

This means that the target AFR will almost certainly be leaned off to @ 15.0:1 or even leaner in some cases approaching 17.0:1!. So when you ride your bike on the road (Or power it up on a DYNO) you can feel and see the areas where the restrictions have been embedded in the bikes ecu fuel map. It manifests itself as the glitches, hunting, shunting and surging in set stages between @ 2250 and 4750rpm which many of us have experienced.

Considering a cure you can always;

-Do nothing because your bike feels ok and/or you feel you can live with the glitches or at least ride around them.

-Take the physically restrictive mechanicals away such as all the exhaust hardware - this usually makes the bike run rough because the fuelling really goes to 'rat shit' and/or pray that the tuning gods and old wives tails about the ecu self adapting over time will work for you (The ecu does adapt a little to account for various parameters such as altitude, temperature, air filter clog and spark plug erosion etc), before you eventually overheat and melt/burn something out because its potentially running too lean and absolutely no where near the best AFR 13.4 - 13.8:1. If you simply replace the silencer for example you will immediately notice it usually farts and pops and runs rough and doesn't get much better in the closed loop area but probably goes like a train near the red line!!

-Invest in some kind of device or programme which will either cheat or modify or change the AFR.

So what have I tried;

-Fitted a power commander - achieves and extracts power with a piggy back system via the fuel injectors and works best with a full exhaust and dyno run - can be removed

-Had a Hilltop re map - modifies and achieve power by flashing the ecu - can be removed by the author but is complex and leaves a footprint

-Fitted and AF-XIED unit - modifies the fuelling/emissions via the lambda sensors via a piggy back system - American import - can be removed

-Fitted an easy unit - modifies the fuelling/emissions via the lambda sensors via a piggy back system - UK available - can be removed

- A device which effectively modifies the signals to the ecu by simply richening the mixture by use of a separate temperature probe and control unit fitted in line with the air induction system; Personally I feel this is a little rudimental and not something I am comfortable fitting on a £17k bike!.

Over the years I have done all the above (Except the so called power plug) with various degrees of success;

At the moment I am running an Easy unit on my 2015 GSA (Standard - no other modifications) and it works just as the technicians at bmw would like it to; if they weren't hamstrung by all the EU regulations!!; it basically allows you to run 13.8;1 across the whole closed loop which effectively gets rid of the ' glitches, hunting, shunting and surging between @ 2250 and 4750rpm.

Why this route?

Its reasonably cheap even when fitted by a technician; its an adjustable option; it removes the glitches and produces smooth crisp power; doesn't adversely affect fuel consumption; the by-product of correct fuelling is that it gives a nice lump of useable power right where you need it for overtaking; it can be removed if required and it can easily be trimmed/tuned to cater for a performance silencer swap.

Anyway that's my contribution for the next 3 years for what its worth!! and yes you may want to let your insurance company know and your local motorrad dealer might get arsey with you; but mine just turn a blind eye at service time because I have been on the above journey with them and only twice left the fold and bought a KTM and a Yamaha before going back...well we all have our vices (as listed) I guess!!.

A wise man once said opinions are like arseholes; everybody's got one, its just they come in different shapes, sizes and play different tunes and of course some are bigger than others!!

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Or as Thorr said, you can simply fit the AF-XIED and know exactly what it is doing and how it works: http://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?56990-2004-R1150RT-Wideband-O2-Sensors.

Since I've installed, tested and reported how every other add-on fueling device works and what it's limitations are, and since I still have two bungs in my exhaust, I'd be happy to test what an Easy does and with data report on how it does it. Mark, if you or anyone would like to make the loan, let me know.

 

[comberjohn]

Think you're wasting your breath there, Roger.
Still, it's good to see that Mark has found someone to explain how the Easy unit works.
Even if Thor is just an enthusiastic fiddler with an opinion, like many of us.
I feel that I've been misrepresented in this thread.
I've simply asked how the system works, how much it is and what are the pros and cons of it. I have no experience with these units, hence the curiosity. I said that the Italian website was badly translated waffle which gives little information.
Mark, please stop calling me 'fella'. Now that really is patronising.
Yes, we know there are satisfied customers and I've never doubted that the system produces the desired results.
But why no prices? On this thread anyway!
£350-550 is all I've heard so far. On the LC thread I'm now reading £135 for an Easy unit.
IF only one unit is required for a boxer engine and IF it does what it says it doors and IF it's as easy to fit as an AF-XiED unit, I'm guessing there's plenty of potential customers.

 

[Mark Hooton]

There's a number of models comberjohn and especially on the evo it depends on which model bike it goes on, people would lose the will to live if I posted every individual price, nor did I want to burden anyone with lengthy explanations, unlike 'thorr' - I've also got two successful business's to run (who would have thought eh) so time is a premium for me! The price guide is about right but I can quote specifically for a particular bike if you want me to, with pleasure!

And I apologise for the 'fella' I can assure you it wasn't meant to be patronising.

As for your last paragraph it's a definite YES to every point so I do suspect many potential customers for those of us who are noticing poor running.


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[younger06]

Hi Mark.

2007 R1200GS Adventure with open headers, remus end can, K&N filter. I'm in Ireland, so getting it fitted by yourself is not an option. Posted to Northern Ireland postcode.
Could you let me know my options with costs.
No hurry, you can PM me if you need to.

Cheers.


(I'm hoping one of the benefits will be to smooth out the bloody vibrations)

 

[comberjohn]

Thank you, Mark.

 

[comberjohn]

Told you and I knew Keith would be one of the first.

 

[Mark Hooton]

Hi Mark.

2007 R1200GS Adventure with open headers, remus end can, K&N filter. I'm in Ireland, so getting it fitted by yourself is not an option. Posted to Northern Ireland postcode.
Could you let me know my options with costs.
No hurry, you can PM me if you need to.

Cheers.


(I'm hoping one of the benefits will be to smooth out the bloody vibrations)

Will do! Most likely tmoz


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[younger06]

Will do! Most likely tmoz


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Thanks, as I said, no hurry. I was considering the AFX thingymabobs, but all the faffing about with shipping from the crazy place is impacting on it's value for money (for me anyhow)