DVSA Consultation on licensing and training of moped and bike riders.

[Posh Pete]

Fill your boots folks https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...em_9sLAEk2Zf3xSj6P4mVEl8Q#consultation-topics

Maybe this could be pinned and linked to something on the home page?

 

[Santa-2512]

Fill your boots folks https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...em_9sLAEk2Zf3xSj6P4mVEl8Q#consultation-topics

Maybe this could be pinned and linked to something on the home page?

Ah a consultation, so nothing anyone says, has to or will be taken into consideration / account

They have just notified you of what they are going to do

 

[GlynnJ]

Most of the proposals look quite sensible, surprisingly enough. Looks like there has been heavy lobbying by training organisations. Hopefully, if implemented, will reduce the number of partially trained/inexperienced scooter delivery riders (providing it's policed).

 

[er-minio]

Seen it before.
It all seems sensible to be fair. Aligned with Europe, at least automatic transmission rules and progression.
They are still missing: you shouldn't ride for work on a CBT.

 

[Lord Snooty]

As an instructor I have already completed the consultation questionnaire. Having been in the game for 17 years I believe I have some very pertinent and valid observations to make.

1. Requiring students to have completed a theory test before doing a CBT makes absolute sense. But it should not be included as part of the CBT training as that puts the onus on an ATB to provide the facilities (laptops etc) and to also invigilate to ensure no cheating happens. The government already has testing centres and these should be used as they are now. Trust me, taking a student who has not got a clue about the Highway Code and how things work out in the real world is a scary experience. i have had students ride through red lights, ride down the wrong side of the road, try to go round a roundabout the wrong way and even had one student decide to ride on the pavement when waiting in traffic! No wonder my hair went white early. Behaviour like this is swiftly followed by the road ride being abandoned for the student's safety and the sake of my blood pressure.

2. There are a lot of very poor instructors who treat the CBT as an "attendance" course to be completed in just one day, students are pretty much guaranteed the certificate just because they have turned up and paid. Very often instructors are put under management pressure to "get them through" in one day regardless of their skill, ability or safety, this encourages corner cutting and very poor instruction. These are ATBs that operate on the stack em high, sell em cheap basis in order to maximise throughput and profit. I have seen the results of this slapdash approach when students who have been "given" a CBT from another school come to us and quite frankly they have no control of the bike, are a danger to themselves and have been ripped off as they have not been trained at all. We have had students come to us and quite openly tell us that during the training they crashed the bike in the car park training, were still taken on the road, crashed again and still issued with a CBT certificate.

3. The DVSA should mandate that the CBT should be a minimum of two days, this would reduce the time pressure, enable the instruction to be carried out at a much more relaxed pace and enable the road ride to be increased from the current two hours. The only time this should be relaxed is for CBT renewals or for students who can already ride. E.G off-road riders etc

4. The government need to close the loophole that allows riders with just a CBT certificate to ride "professionally" doing deliveries. They are the weakest, least able, least experienced riders, riding under time pressure, on strange roads in the worst of conditions as learners. Learner car drivers are not allowed to do this yet we have this ridiculous situation that allows a 17 years old to do a CBT and the next day he is riding for a living - utter madness. The fast food business is exploiting this situation and should be made to pay for proper training just as an employer in any other industry would be legislated to do so to improve the health and safety of employees.

These are just a snapshot of the comments I have made.

 

[wessie]

2. There are a lot of very poor instructors who treat the CBT as an "attendance" course to be completed in just one day, students are pretty much guaranteed the certificate just because they have turned up and paid. Very often instructors are put under management pressure to "get them through" in one day regardless of their skill, ability or safety, this encourages corner cutting and very poor instruction. These are ATBs that operate on the stack em high, sell em cheap basis in order to maximise throughput and profit. I have seen the results of this slapdash approach when students who have been "given" a CBT from another school come to us and quite frankly they have no control of the bike, are a danger to themselves and have been ripped off as they have not been trained at all. We have had students come to us and quite openly tell us that during the training they crashed the bike in the car park training, were still taken on the road, crashed again and still issued with a CBT certificate.

a friend qualified as a CBT instructor a while ago after being made redundant. He was full time for a while until the right opportunity came along in his preferred job. He carried on doing the CBTs on weekends

he recently quit for the reason you state above. He was doing it as a hobby and no longer needed the income. He felt the company was only interested in the income not quality training.

 

[yoyo]

I completed it yesterday, thankfully I only instruct post test stuff, I don't know how you cope with 16yr olds on scooters!

The theory prior to CBT is a must, maybe less so of you have a car licence.

There definitely needs to be a mechanism to stop working while on CBT, I'm sure most delivery riders won't have the correct insurance for starters.

Should you only be allowed 2 CBT's before you have to complete your full test?

I liked the idea of progressive courses between the licence grades but there is a risk the same ATB's could just put people through the course just for the sake of the payment.

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[Fiddlesticks]

My comments were somewhat similar...

• Theory before CBT
• Hazard Perception test I always thought a waste of time anyway.
• Pushing everything online seems too close to the digital-only / digital ID dystopia for my liking.
• Banning repeat CBT's seems punitive. If you're safe to ride after one CBT, you're safe to ride after 2 years experience and another one. I know we should all be striving to do more training - I do more every year - but this will have unintended consequences. Lack of test slots is already a problem, as is illegal riding. I'd like to see more carrot than stick here.
• The comments on training instructors seemed to be in line with what the industry were asking for, so
• License progression, not sure.
• Auto CBT only allowing auto bikes... Is there any evidence that this causes problems today? If you drive a manual car and do your CBT on an auto, a 125cc manual bike wouldn't be too much of a challenge.

Mixed bag...

 

[er-minio]

Auto CBT only allowing auto bikes... Is there any evidence that this causes problems today

We had a similar issue in Italy.
But I am not sure there is actual data.

From an unexperienced point of view I can tell what I saw when I took my test… even though it was ages ago now (90ies - I’m getting old).
When I took my practical test for 125 at 16, I was the only one doing it on a 125 motorbike.
Over there is the same, you have to use a geared bike, but the “trick” for most people is to do the test on a geared Vespa 125.

These are the, usually, same people you see tiptoeing in slow traffic/filtering or that have zero control of their bikes in tight manoeuvres (hairpin threads come to mind ) or moving around at slow speed. And the same people that usually say that the practical test (8 figure, cones, stop, etc.) is “useless”.

Even though the access to motorbike license in the UK is way more rigorous… it’s common to see “feet down” people these days. Especially those on cbts on scooters. Maybe is to prevent this “creeping” up?

Just a thought.

 

[Lord Snooty]

Should you only be allowed 2 CBT's before you have to complete your full test?

I'm a bit torn on this one. We have some customers who have completed 5/6 or even more CBTs. They are what we would term special needs, some rate low on the IQ scale but they are all safe riders, one of them does not have basic literacy and numeracy skills. The use of a 125 bike is a lifeline for them, it gives them mobility, independence, a social outlet and a means of commuting to and from work. Given their specific issues they would never be able to cope with a theory test and then a MOD1 and MOD2 test. To deny them their only means of transport would isolate them would be pretty devastating to their way of life. So maybe there should be special exemptions for these people.

 

[wessie]

I'm a bit torn on this one. We have some customers who have completed 5/6 or even more CBTs. They are what we would term special needs, some rate low on the IQ scale but they are all safe riders, one of them does not have basic literacy and numeracy skills. The use of a 125 bike is a lifeline for them, it gives them mobility, independence, a social outlet and a means of commuting to and from work. Given their specific issues they would never be able to cope with a theory test and then a MOD1 and MOD2 test. To deny them their only means of transport would isolate them would be pretty devastating to their way of life. So maybe there should be special exemptions for these people.

there are already provisions for those with additional needs to take the theory test
https://www.gov.uk/theory-test/reading-difficulty-disability-or-health-condition

You can get:

• extra time to take the test
• someone to read what’s on the screen and record your answers
• someone to reword the questions for you

 

[Lord Snooty]

there are already provisions for those with additional needs to take the theory test
https://www.gov.uk/theory-test/reading-difficulty-disability-or-health-condition

You can get:

• extra time to take the test
• someone to read what’s on the screen and record your answers
• someone to reword the questions for you

That may be the case but I doubt very much if they would be able to handle the stress of training for and taking a MOD1 and MOD2 test.

 

[leedude03]

Mike i agree its a tough call with that one, it is something that i get torn up over, i really can not see an easy answer to this, its very much like taking people for the cbt when they have special needs and deciding whether or not to tell them this is maybe not for them, or worst still have to explain it to the parents, i find that difficult, after all you are denying them there independance while at the same time trying to keep them safe, and some times when explaining this to parents its not what they want to hear , this may be for different reasons and of late i find its because they are then saddled with having to keep running there child about.

 

[vRSG60]

When I was riding Lambrettas, not that long ago, most of the scooter boys I knew who were riding on L plates only passed 1 CBT years ago and never retook the test after 2 years!!!


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[Lord Snooty]

When I was riding Lambrettas, not that long ago, most of the scooter boys I knew who were riding on L plates only passed 1 CBT years ago and never retook the test after 2 years!!!


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You see thousands of scooters at rallies without L plates but you can pretty much guarantee they haven't passed a test and as you say they probably don't have CBT certificates either. What they don't realise is that they are not insured. The police would have a field day if they attended a scooter rally and checked for proper documentation.