Euro 5 - did it change the characteristic of the Boxer?

[Rosed777]

I have had a 750GS for 3 years and it's a peach.

I recently got a Kawasaki Z900RS and it's been so disappointing as the engine feels virtually binary between power on/ power off when you open/close the throttle. Euro 5 seems to be the culprit & the effect has been to turn a good looking, nice handling bike into one I just cannot get to grips with. The last straw is the way the power comes on with a thump if you add a bit whilst cornering - it just feels unsafe. I've read a bit online & there are a few articles that say the high revving sports bike are much more affected by the Euro 5 regs than twins.

I've sat on a couple of 1250RS and they feel like they'd be a nice fit for me.

So - a question to the 1250 boxer crew - have you noticed Euro 5 made the throttle more "jerky" when you open/close the throttle?

Thanks very much.

 

[Alan R]

Simple answer, in my experience, no. My 2017 euro 4 r1200gsa had a very noticeable flat spot in the power delivery at about 4,500 rpm. So much so that one would swear that traction control was cutting in under hard acceleration. my 2019 r1250gs, which I believe is euro 5, is very tractable at low engine revs and delivers it’s power very smoothly in a linear fashion without a detectable flat spot. I cannot detect where the cam shift operates either.
Alan R

 

[TIJ650]

It’s ruined most bikes cause they all run lean as hell from the factory. Rather than change your bike - I’d buy a Booster Plug cause that might eliminate most flat spots and your throttle snatch. This remedy worked on my Euro 5 R1200GSA Rallye.

https://www.boosterplug.com/shop/frontpage.html


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[J biker]

2014 1200gs, 2015 S1000r, 2017 1200gs, now a 2022 1250gs. No fuelling problems with any of them.

Last bike I owned with a problem was a 2008 Fz1s

 

[Mr Bean]

2014 1200gs, 2015 S1000r, 2017 1200gs, now a 2022 1250gs. No fuelling problems with any of them.

Last bike I owned with a problem was a 2008 Fz1s

Same with me, except my current bike is a late 2018 build 1250.

 

[malcopopolo]

2014 1200gs, 2015 S1000r, 2017 1200gs, now a 2022 1250gs. No fuelling problems with any of them.

Last bike I owned with a problem was a 2008 Fz1s

Not for me. The stock fueling on my eu4 1200gs was hesitant at constant throttle at 30mph. Had it remapped by BHPUK. Fuelling is sublime. Also noticed that the chrome header pipes do not discolour. It is so good i would not upgrade to a 1250 despite test riding one and liking the stock fueling.

 

[Alan R]

It’s ruined most bikes cause they all run lean as hell from the factory. Rather than change your bike - I’d buy a Booster Plug cause that might eliminate most flat spots and your throttle snatch. This remedy worked on my Euro 5 R1200GSA Rallye.

https://www.boosterplug.com/shop/frontpage.html


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These devices have been discussed at great length on this forum: the received knowledge states that they work for a short while, enriching the mixture by fooling the ecu into thinking the air temperature is cooler than it actually is. Apparently the ecu ‘learns’ this and taking its read from the lambda sensors, after combustion has taken place, leans out the mixture back to its programmed ratio. Another old time, now largely debunked favourite ‘fix’ is the have the ecu ‘hilltopped’.
Do a search and have a laugh.
Alan R

 

[Engineer]

No it hasn't on my 2021 1250 GS, none of my 1200 GS's since 2005 ever had such a problem. My Triumph Thruxton R has, but it's not hard to ride around.

 

[TIJ650]

Yeah, I discovered this phenomenon when I dumped the CAT and ran straight through pipe. It ran like bat out of hell for few weeks then developed massive flat spot mid rpm. I put the CAT back on (whilst retaining booster plug and keeping flap cables off) and fuels decent through full rev range and better than stock off throttle and low down.
Anyway, I was primary referring to Z900RS cause I don’t think it’ll have same anti fuck with ECU as BMW. I had same problem with KTM 690 Duke - the throttle response off idle was positively dangerous. The Booster Pug helped that too. Obviously it’s only a cheap quick fix option and no substitute for hilltop remapping or a Power Commander 5


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[TIJ650]

These devices have been discussed at great length on this forum: the received knowledge states that they work for a short while, enriching the mixture by fooling the ecu into thinking the air temperature is cooler than it actually is. Apparently the ecu ‘learns’ this and taking its read from the lambda sensors, after combustion has taken place, leans out the mixture back to its programmed ratio. Another old time, now largely debunked favourite ‘fix’ is the have the ecu ‘hilltopped’.
Do a search and have a laugh.
Alan R

Oops, still trying to figure Tapatalk intricacies lol


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[PitaNaanRoti]

I have had a 750GS for 3 years and it's a peach.

I recently got a Kawasaki Z900RS and it's been so disappointing as the engine feels virtually binary between power on/ power off when you open/close the throttle. Euro 5 seems to be the culprit & the effect has been to turn a good looking, nice handling bike into one I just cannot get to grips with. The last straw is the way the power comes on with a thump if you add a bit whilst cornering - it just feels unsafe. I've read a bit online & there are a few articles that say the high revving sports bike are much more affected by the Euro 5 regs than twins.

I've sat on a couple of 1250RS and they feel like they'd be a nice fit for me.

So - a question to the 1250 boxer crew - have you noticed Euro 5 made the throttle more "jerky" when you open/close the throttle?

Thanks very much.

Take the Z900 to RJS at Mallory Park.
You won’t regret it.

 

[Rosed777]

Thanks everyone for the replies, much appreciated

 

[Popell]

It’s ruined most bikes cause they all run lean as hell from the factory. Rather than change your bike - I’d buy a Booster Plug cause that might eliminate most flat spots and your throttle snatch. This remedy worked on my Euro 5 R1200GSA Rallye.

https://www.boosterplug.com/shop/frontpage.html


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Its my belief (born out from experience), that the booster plug, whilst immediately noticeable, gets adapted out by the engine fuel management as it tries to get back to the A:F ratio determined my the motherland.

I bought some AF-Xieds which spoof the being sent to management into thinking its running lean which makes it enrichen the mixture and seriously smooths out power delivery.

They are quite difficult to get now (unless you're in the States) but well worth the money , certainly for Hexhead. I think discussions when the LC came out seemed to side with 'less effective cos it's good already' but that may have reversed with later revisions of Euro compliance.

 

[knutk]

I have had a 750GS for 3 years and it's a peach.

I recently got a Kawasaki Z900RS and it's been so disappointing as the engine feels virtually binary between power on/ power off when you open/close the throttle. Euro 5 seems to be the culprit & the effect has been to turn a good looking, nice handling bike into one I just cannot get to grips with. The last straw is the way the power comes on with a thump if you add a bit whilst cornering - it just feels unsafe. I've read a bit online & there are a few articles that say the high revving sports bike are much more affected by the Euro 5 regs than twins.

I've sat on a couple of 1250RS and they feel like they'd be a nice fit for me.

So - a question to the 1250 boxer crew - have you noticed Euro 5 made the throttle more "jerky" when you open/close the throttle?

Thanks very much.

By introduction of Euro 5 BMW also changed the O2 sensor to a 'Wideband' sensor.
Short story, the WB sensor offers more accurate feedback to the ECU, thus I think most BMW owners will find the Euro 5 engines to be the smoothes running engines that are made for the last 15 years...

 

[TIJ650]

Its my belief (born out from experience), that the booster plug, whilst immediately noticeable, gets adapted out by the engine fuel management as it tries to get back to the A:F ratio determined my the motherland.

I bought some AF-Xieds which spoof the being sent to management into thinking its running lean which makes it enrichen the mixture and seriously smooths out power delivery.

They are quite difficult to get now (unless you're in the States) but well worth the money , certainly for Hexhead. I think discussions when the LC came out seemed to side with 'less effective cos it's good already' but that may have reversed with later revisions of Euro compliance.

Yeah, this is the best solution, but I’m reluctant to spend £400 to dial my bike in. Already sold Remus header and reverted back to CAT setup and ride (rev) past flat at 5000rpm
Whole Euro 5 thing pisses me off and discourages me from buying a new bike. I remember buying bikes in the 80’s and they were fuelled for maximum performance and lowest engine running temperature and you didn’t really have to spend anymore to achieve this. Now they’re all setup for lowest emissions with little regard for max fuelling performance (both power and running temp). BMW have went one step farther and even made it difficult to bolt on inexpensive workarounds!


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[Rockred]

Its my belief (born out from experience), that the booster plug, whilst immediately noticeable, gets adapted out by the engine fuel management as it tries to get back to the A:F ratio determined my the motherland.

I bought some AF-Xieds which spoof the being sent to management into thinking its running lean which makes it enrichen the mixture and seriously smooths out power delivery.

They are quite difficult to get now (unless you're in the States) but well worth the money , certainly for Hexhead. I think discussions when the LC came out seemed to side with 'less effective cos it's good already' but that may have reversed with later revisions of Euro compliance.

I have AF-Xieds on my 15 GS, and it’s made a difference. What I like about them is that you can alter the A:F mixture in minutes, I fitted decat headers a couple of years ago and was a little bit concerned about the bike running to lean, so I enriched the A:F mixture, then had a good ride and pulled the plugs when I got back to see what colour they were, l was pleased to see them a nice dark beige colour, which to my old school method told me that it’s not running to lean or to hot.

 

[TIJ650]

I have AF-Xieds on my 15 GS, and it’s made a difference. What I like about them is that you can alter the A:F mixture in minutes, I fitted decat headers a couple of years ago and was a little bit concerned about the bike running to lean, so I enriched the A:F mixture, then had a good ride and pulled the plugs when I got back to see what colour they were, l was pleased to see them a nice dark beige colour, which to my old school method told me that it’s not running to lean or to hot.

I know the AF-Xieds work well, but too much of a faff getting from States. Besides, your bike is Euro 4 and less of a closed loop. You can even put on a Dynojet PC5 if not mistaken.
My bike is almost stock now with just an end can and flapper valve permanently open. Booster Plug is still on and definitely notice improvement on initial throttle response. Bike revs clean with only slight hesitation at mid range. Mind you, the improvement (like all boxers) may be attributed to miles under saddle


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[TIJ650]

I know the AF-Xieds work well, but too much of a faff getting from States. Besides, your bike is Euro 4 and less of a closed loop. You can even put on a Dynojet PC5 if not mistaken.
My bike is almost stock now with just an end can and flapper valve permanently open. Booster Plug is still on and definitely notice improvement on initial throttle response. Bike revs clean with only slight hesitation at mid range. Mind you, the improvement (like all boxers) may be attributed to miles under saddle


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PS. You should get your bike checked on A:F dyno. The main lean spot is in midrange and won’t show in plug chop.
Probably dial bike in better than ass dyno too


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[yofi]

My experience of the 1200 EU4 and 1250 EU5 is as some have observed - the former had poor fuelling, with a flat spot between 5-6k and hunting at 30mph in third, whereas the only minor fuelling issue on the 1250 is a small bit of hunting in 1st below 10 mph. Neither had snatchy throttle mind.

Regards the Z900RS, which I also own, there are most definitely things you can do to improve the ride without re-mapping. Firstly set the throttle up correctly (2-3mm play), set the clutch up properly (2-3mm play), upgrade the levers to give you more feel on the clutch when feathering in gear changes, and angle the levers to your natural reach. This will give you your first improvement.

But probably the biggest thing you can do is ride it as a 4-pot and keep it in lower gears in corners and when anticipating times when you might need to slow down. Kawasaki have produced a very tractable engine for the RS but which rather lulls you into being in higher gears when you should be in lower gears for bends and in traffic bound areas.

I was quite depressed with the snatchy throttle when I first got my RS but since making these adoptions the on/off throttle issue is now more an occasional annoyance (when I'm in too high gear for the occasion).

Bottom line is, either remap it, or set it up properly and adjust your riding style. And should you still be thinking of changing to a beemer, get the 1250.

 

[knutk]

......
Whole Euro 5 thing pisses me off and discourages me from buying a new bike. I remember buying bikes in the 80’s and they were fuelled for maximum performance and lowest engine running temperature and you didn’t really have to spend anymore to achieve this. Now they’re all setup for lowest emissions with little regard for max fuelling performance (both power and running temp). BMW have went one step farther and even made it difficult to bolt on inexpensive workarounds!

I can not reply on behalf of every brand made, but as for the 1250 LC engine, there is no reason to worry.
It'runs very smooth, and even though it complies with emission regulations, keep in mind that the requirements for the emission is not meassured at wide open throttle. In fact, at WOT the LC engine gets plenty of fuel, and there at best only a tiny gain in horsepower 'hidden' away for the purpose of emission control. Tuners may still get a bit more out of the engine. This is due to the fact that the mandatory CAT requires Oxygen in order to convert CO to CO2, and this extra oxygen comes from unused oxygen molecules in the exhaust. Thus, the ECU has to hold back ever so slightly for this purpose. By removing the CAT, this excessive oxygen is not required, and a competent tuner will help the ECU to utilize ALL the oxygen for maximum power.

However, I think most 1250 owners will tell you that engine copes just fine in stock configuration...
As for the 'tampering detection': this is not BMW's idea. Euro4 required a check of the O2 sensor in order to make sure the engine complies with emission even several years after delivery. Euro 5 even more so. All brands have to meet this requirement...