Gearbox for R65.

cringe

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Has anyone got a gearbox for R65 1981 on even one for reconditioning as mine has done 160K and wines a bit.Also read a blog about a "fixing plate "you could put in gearbox so when the dreaded index ? spring breaks you can still select gears. Chris
 
Why buy an unknown one for reconditioning - do you need the bike on a daily basis ??

A full set of bearings, seals, springs, a new indexing roller & the cover gasket cost about £160, you would be better off re-furbing your existing box.

Some special tools are necessary which can be a bit of an outlay. However there are people on here who can do the work for you if you wish (I'm doing one from an '84 80GS at the moment).

I have never heard of a "plate that allows gear changing with a broken return spring" but I'd be interested to learn more - do you have a link ??

PM me if you want to discuss - I have a spare box you could borrow while yours is being worked on (I'm assuming its a post-81 five speed box and therefore the same as the GS boxes :nenau).


Bob.
 
Gearbox for R65

Bob thanks for info,interested if there is anyone near me who could rebuild a box for me unless it would be worth getting tools what would I need as am in engineering?
 
I have never heard of a "plate that allows gear changing with a broken return spring" but I'd be interested to learn more - do you have a link ??

Bob.

I think he means the late 83 onwards selector plate Bob. It's a seriously expensive upgrade because you have to buy both gears on the selector plate. If you just buy the one they bind. I've got a selector plate that was "upgraded" for £250 by a well known expert who just fitted one of the gears.
 
Bob thanks for info,interested if there is anyone near me who could rebuild a box for me unless it would be worth getting tools what would I need as am in engineering?

Things you will need . . .

1. A means of locking the output drive flange while you are undoing / tightening the nut. I made a locking bar out of a length of flat steel, about 24" long. It needs to be bored to allow a 24mm socket to reach the nut.

A flat bar will also need a spacing disc underneath it as the output flange is sunk below the surface of the alloy housing that the rubber gaitor fits around.

There is a special tool available which is very nice, but quite pricy. I really must get one :bounce1.


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2. Having got the nut off (its torqued to 163.5 lbs/ft) you have to draw the output flange off the taper on the shaft. These can be tight.

I made a heavy steel plate that bolts to the flange which is itself threaded to take the legs of a hydraulic bearing splitter.

Again, the special tool does this with less faffing about. My solution does work though.


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3. Remove the nine 6mm socket-head bolts holding the end cover and then heat the cover to release the three bearings which are an interference fit.

I use a propane torch (carefully) or a 2Kw hot air gun. Carefully heat the whole cover evenly to just short of the boiling point of oil.


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With the end cover removed, this is what you see, there will be shims on the end of the bearings:


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I won't go through the whole re-build process - this is about tools - but here is a useful link:

http://jhau.maliwi.de/mot/gearbox.html

4. The selector cams come out as a single unit (two bolts through the front of the box). There are three springs and an indexing roller that can be replaced.


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5. The two selector forks that operate on the output shaft are then removed by drawing their spindle shaft out of the box.

Remove the long, thin, oil baffle from above the output shaft (small cross-head machine screw on the top of the box).

The front face of the box then has to be heated to release the output and intermediate shafts and the input shaft front bearing.

The Selector fork that operates on the Intermediate Shaft has to be drawn off its spindle shaft as the gear shafts are removed - its spindle is fixed in the box.

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6. You will need some form of puller to get the bearings off the gear shafts. I find a bearing splitter to be best (I now have a set of smaller ones than this :augie ):


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A three-claw puller can also be made to work, but the claws are often too thick to get between the back of the bearing and the adjacent gear.

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7. On re-assembly, the gear shafts have to be shimmed to give a clearance of 0.05mm ( :eek: ). This is where the technical stuff begins.

First, re-assemble the whole mechanism in the main gearbox case (heat the case to settle the front bearings). Then fit a new cover gasket.

You need to determine how far each bearing protrudes above the rear face of the gearbox case. To do this effectively you will need a "Shimming Plate". I bought mine from Mat Beekers at BMW Boxer Supplies:

http://www.bmwboxersupplies.com/product_info.php?currency=GBP&cPath=2&products_id=68&osCsid=a7794b0f5f8476e4e62316f6ca082d67

I drilled mine so that it could be bolted down on the gasket. It looks like this:


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Then determine the thickness of the Shimming Plate. You will require a micrometer gauge for this:


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Then you will need a "Depth Micrometer" to measure the height of each bearing's outer track above the Shimming Plate. They will all be different and you will get different readings as you work your way around each bearing :blast.


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Next, you need to measure the depth of each bearing housing in the cover plate. Again, there will be different readings at different points around each housing.


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Then do your sums. Pick the most representative values for the height of bearing and depth of housing for each bearing. The calculation goes:

Shim thickness required = depth of housing - ((thickness of shimming plate + height of bearing) - 0.05mm).

Shims are available in four gauges - 0.2mm, 0.28mm, 0.38mm & 0.5mm. Check the actual thickness of each group with the micrometer as there will be variations (i.e. don't just take the thickness from the packet !).

Remember that there is an oil baffle on the end of the Intermediate Shaft - measure it and treat is as a shim (its 0.5mm if you want to know :D).


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I lightly grease the shims to get them to stick to the shaft bearings and then put four 6mm studs into the case to locate the (hot) end cover as it is re-attached.

8. With the case re-attached, check that the gears work before you bolt up the output flange :augie

The output flange is torqued-up to 163.5 lbs/ft. I use a 'certified' 50-300 lbs/ft 3/4" drive wrench.


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And that just about sums up the tools you will need - without getting into details as to how the gears and selectors go together, or how you replace the springs & seals.


Any questions - just ask Rob Farmer :D :D :D

(Seriously, PM me if I can help).


Bob.
 
I think he means the late 83 onwards selector plate Bob. It's a seriously expensive upgrade because you have to buy both gears on the selector plate. If you just buy the one they bind. I've got a selector plate that was "upgraded" for £250 by a well known expert who just fitted one of the gears.

Interesting,

Both my Paralever boxes were made around 1988. They are not immune from broken spring problems as the spare box was shipped to France to help a member get home.

His box was the same as mine and had a broken selector escapement spring. He couldn't change gear.

So what's different ???


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Curious now :blast


Bob.
 
I'd read the same thing as cringe somewhere on the net. It was reported that the arm on the later selector plate was re-shaped so that if the spring snapped the arm would still select gears.

A friend of mine also read the article and took his gearbox along to a well known specialist to be modified. I suspect the devil was in the detail and he may have simply asked for the later gearbox selector to be fitted to his gearbox. Anyway £250 later he had a gearbox that would not change gear at all well and the specialist refused to have anything else to do with it. The bottom line is he paid £250 to have his gearbox screwed up.

Fast forward 3 or 4 years and I inherited the gearbox. Motobins sell a complete kit for £200 + Vat this comes with selector plates and arms to bring everything up to the later spec.

If you only fit the selector arm you end up with the cam plates binding on it - if you look at the picture you can see where the arm binds on the gears, it actually binds on both plates but you can only see the one in the photograph

selectors.jpg


My mate was actually told to use it and allow it to bed in :rolleyes: the reality was that it was impossible to change gear without forcing the gear lever back to the centre position.

Does the later selector allow you to change gear if the spring fails? :nenau I've seen them stuck in gear with a broken spring.
 
Does the later selector allow you to change gear if the spring fails? :nenau I've seen them stuck in gear with a broken spring.

It doesn't :blast

If the small spring breaks the escapement lever drops away from the 'cage' underneath the front cam plate and therefore the gears won't change.

I have heard of people, stuck in far-away places, turning the bike over so that the escapement lever makes contact - then selecting third gear.

That gets them back to civilisation :D :D :D

(Now, if BMW had designed the box with the escapement above the cam plate axis instead of below it - we wouldn't have a problem :augie ).


Bob.
 
I've heard the same "turn the bike upside down" stories. Never seen it done though.

Be. Nice to know where some of these stories come from.
 
Bloody interesting stuff guys. Def convinced me to never open a gearbox up & to take it to an experienced mech.
 
I've heard the same "turn the bike upside down" stories. Never seen it done though.

Be. Nice to know where some of these stories come from.

I'd have thought Steptoe's the sort of bloke that would have tried it first before recommending it :thumb he may, however, just have been taking the piss :blast
 
No one, including Mr Haynes, details how you get the inner race/sleeve for the input roller bearing off the input shaft.

I have the box for my G/S apart.It was rebuilt for the PO not that long ago by the Canberra back yard guru, at huge expense.

He has put top hat spacers in all the blind holes? and removed both seals from all the bearings.

He also didnt use C3 bearings anywhere, main problem with this appears to be the output shaft rear bearing, which has overheated so much that it has been turning on the shaft and has worn it. I suspect the shaft is scrap, but hopefully I can replace it with a circlip shaft which will save me the machining cost

A lower 1st and higher 5 th gear was fitted, but somehow the first gear, or the end gear on the output shaft, has been hitting the outer race of the intermediate shaft bearing.

But for this to happen the bearing must have been protruding a fair bit out of the end cover.
So I suspect that their is an error or problem somewhere with the stack on the intermediate shaft.

A proper can of worms - glad I have a replacement box, err, on order.
 
No one, including Mr Haynes, details how you get the inner race/sleeve for the input roller bearing off the input shaft.

A lower 1st and higher 5 th gear was fitted, but somehow the first gear, or the end gear on the output shaft, has been hitting the outer race of the intermediate shaft bearing.

But for this to happen the bearing must have been protruding a fair bit out of the end cover.
So I suspect that their is an error or problem somewhere with the stack on the intermediate shaft..

I'm not sure I follow all that :nenau.

The input shaft pulls out of the front roller bearing quite easily once the output and intermediate shafts start to be withdrawn.


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The 6304 ball race on the rear of the input shaft can be a bit tricky - unless you don't mind replacing the oil baffle that is sandwiched between it and the top hat sleeve that its mounted on. I find careful use of a bearing splitter gets the bearing off without damaging the baffle (but I keep a couple in hand, just in case :augie).

The top hat sleeve pulls off the end of the shaft, allowing the shock absorber to be compressed and the snap ring that is recessed behind the top hat to be removed.

The roller bearing comes out of the front of the case with a little heat. It has to be withdrawn from the inside.

None of that should cause a major problem.

If the large gear on the rear of the output shaft (its First Gear) has been hitting the Intermediate shaft bearing's outer track, there is something seriously wrong.

First gear is in constant mesh with the rear pinion on the Intermediate shaft and the Intermediate shaft can't usually be dismantled unless one has a seriously large press (30 tons, I believe).

I can't see how first gear could possibly hit the Intermediate bearing track with the box working (I assume it was :confused:).


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If non-standard ball bearings were used (at the front), I suppose they could be thinner, meaning that the shafts would be closer to the front of the box.

Do you have the bearings that came out, and could you measure them ??

The front bearing on the output shaft is a 6403 C3 - Inner bore = 17mm, outer track diameter = 62mm, width = 17mm.

The other three are 6304 C3 - Inner bore = 20mm, outer track diameter = 52mm, Width = 15mm.

It'll be interesting to find out what went wrong (well, I'd find it interesting :rob ).

I have recently found a baffling problem with an '84 80GS box - the output drive flange was crushing the rear bearing on the output shaft into the first gear pinion and locking-up the box.

The taper on the shaft looked stretched and a bit waisted, so I sourced a replacement shaft and flange. Its all OK now, but both the original components are toast.

Either the shaft hasn't been hardened properly or someone has seriously over-tightened it in the past.

The flange is done up to 163.5 lbs/ft, so overtightening it would take some doing :nenau.

There were no marks on either part to indicate that the flange had been slipping.

So, problems with shafts are not unknown :blast.

Good luck sourcing the replacement shaft :thumb


Bob.
 
Voyager, thanks for that - my box is different to the one in your photographs as it is a kickstart box and there is a gear for the kickstart behind the shock damper spring.

I just obtained a Clymer manual which is much better than the Haynes for the gearbox strip - wish I had it before I had started stripping the box down.

Haynes makes no mention of removing the input shaft flanged rear bearing bushing, and does not detail the special sleeve required to let you compress the kickstart gear/shock damper spring and remove the snap ring.

I will have to do this if I am to replace the inner race of the input roller bearing -I suspect neither Jorg or Haynes did!.

I have measured all the shafts and while the output bearing journal shows signs of the inner race turning on the shaft it is still larger than the rest - confirms what I was told, that when the circlip was omitted the shaft was increased in size to increase the interference fit on the bearing. And also might explain why the non C3 bearings the PO fitted ran hot only on this journal.

All the bearings measure up OK, but the 6403 has only six balls - I seem to recall seeing some that had seven, dont know if that makes a difference.
 
Voyager, thanks for that - my box is different to the one in your photographs as it is a kickstart box and there is a gear for the kickstart behind the shock damper spring.

I finished putting one of those together yesterday:


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I didn't have any problem getting the Input shaft out, once the other shafts were loose.

Strangely, the 'top hat sleeve' just fell off the end of the Input shaft. Others I have worked on have been very tight.

To split the Input shock absorber, I just covered the jaws of a large bench vice with cloth, then caught the edges of the front and rear gears. The front & rear bearings, and the 'top hat sleeve' had to be removed to do this.

Tightening up the vice gave access to the snap ring and I hooked it out with a pair of small screwdrivers.

Un-winding the vice allowed it all to come apart gently (I needn't have bothered, it was all OK).

All very civilised and not as 'bodged' as it sounds :D :D


I believe six balls is normal for a 6403 C3 bearing:


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I still don't understand why you are having problems removing the Input Shaft from the front roller bearing :nenau.


Bob.
 
It is the inner sleeve of the front roller bearing which I am having trouble removing, the cage, rollers and outer sleeve come out of the case easily.

How do you usually get the "tight" top hat sleeves off ?
 
It is the inner sleeve of the front roller bearing which I am having trouble removing.

How do you usually get the "tight" top hat sleeves off ?

Ah, I see. I have never tried to strip the front of an Input shaft, the new roller bearing has always been a good fit on the existing track. Something I must look into I think.

What year is the box you are stripping ??

Paging Rob Farmer . . Paging Rob Farmer . .


The 'top hat' fits over a spigot on the rear of the Input shaft (no photos I'm afraid :blast).

The spigot is the same diameter as the outer track of the clutch push rod oil seal:


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With the oil seal removed its possible to draw the Top Hat off the spigot with a puller - but you will need a steel rod (shaft of a bolt ?) that fits inside for the puller to bear against.

Tricky littls B's those small oil seals :blast - the housing has to be cleaned out thoroughly and the seal walls are so thin that they can buckle as you tap them in. I tapped the last one in from the back when the top hat was removed. That allowed me to tap against the base of the seal instead of the rim ;).

I've ruined a couple of those seals trying to fit them. Fortunately they are not too expensive and I keep a few 'in stock'. I'm better at it these days :D.


Bob.
 
I have a thick plate with hole that a perfect fit for the bearing milled into it. It just needs the sleeve warming slightly and the shaft can be pressed out. If you whack it with a hammer you can snap the shoulder off the sleeve.

I always find compressing the shock absorber spring to be the worst part of a gearbox rebuild.
 
I have a thick plate with hole that a perfect fit for the bearing milled into it. It just needs the sleeve warming slightly and the shaft can be pressed out. If you whack it with a hammer you can snap the shoulder off the sleeve.


Hmmmmmmm . . . It appears there are depths that I haven't yet plumbed :confused:.

Next time I've got a box apart I'll fire up the lathe and make a former for a puller to act on.

One never stops learning :thumb

Bob.
 


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