Le singe
Guest
Has it been unusually sunny in Germany lately?
wut
Guest
Plusminus on ARD
I don't like getting involved in these arguments but as I have just seen the program mentioned (got a FTA satellite dish and receiver) I feel I need to give my interpretation of what was actually said. By the way I do have the 1200!
At no stage did the program assert that the brake system actually failed. The technical expert interviewed explained the complexity of the system, the potential problems when the system fails and did state that he could not comprehend how BMW could not recall the system and replace it with something more reliable/simple.
The uproar has been caused by brake failures on training courses where contrary to the british bike test, where dipping front forks are seen as evidence of an emergency stop, everybody is encouraged to really do an emergency stop (i.e. relying on the ABS to keep it all upright). It looks like repeated emergency stops can drain the battery (it never said how many!) which in turn causes the electric brake system & ABS to fail. It sounds like one of the instructors then experienced front wheel lock-up and crashed. Other incidents of crashing were mentioned (two crashers were interviewed) but the circumstances of these crashes were never fully explained.
Overall the program at no time claimed the brakes actually failed completely - just pointed out the possiblity of only "residual braking" being available under certain circumstances and the possibility that without ABS the front wheel might well lock up.
In my opinion the brakes are fantastic when they work - yes, there is the possibility of having only residual braking available (something you can practise) and I am sure BMW can design a better system (something they might be doing already).
Sometimes I do wonder whether riders need to apply a bit more common sense though. For example I was taught by my father to use engine braking whenever possible. In my teens we lived in Ecuador and descending mountain passes could only be negotiated with engine braking as the brake fluid would soon start boiling if the brakes were used continously for 30 minutes. Today instructors tell their charges not downshift at all.
As for perfoming numerous emergency stops in succession - how many sports cars have actually survived the treatment they receive on Top Gear? On the GS I am aware of the brake system and behave accordingly - for example unless I have to I do not keep my foot on the rear brake at traffic lights - not the way you are taught but quite OK as far as I am concerned.
It might be an overly complex system but when they work they have amazing stopping power. I guess if the german public prosecutor does decide that the brake system is unsafe (they are now investigating) BMW will have to replace the system on over 200000 bikes worldwide. Until then I intend to keep my wits about me and be sensible when riding a fantastic bike.
Walter
I don't like getting involved in these arguments but as I have just seen the program mentioned (got a FTA satellite dish and receiver) I feel I need to give my interpretation of what was actually said. By the way I do have the 1200!
At no stage did the program assert that the brake system actually failed. The technical expert interviewed explained the complexity of the system, the potential problems when the system fails and did state that he could not comprehend how BMW could not recall the system and replace it with something more reliable/simple.
The uproar has been caused by brake failures on training courses where contrary to the british bike test, where dipping front forks are seen as evidence of an emergency stop, everybody is encouraged to really do an emergency stop (i.e. relying on the ABS to keep it all upright). It looks like repeated emergency stops can drain the battery (it never said how many!) which in turn causes the electric brake system & ABS to fail. It sounds like one of the instructors then experienced front wheel lock-up and crashed. Other incidents of crashing were mentioned (two crashers were interviewed) but the circumstances of these crashes were never fully explained.
Overall the program at no time claimed the brakes actually failed completely - just pointed out the possiblity of only "residual braking" being available under certain circumstances and the possibility that without ABS the front wheel might well lock up.
In my opinion the brakes are fantastic when they work - yes, there is the possibility of having only residual braking available (something you can practise) and I am sure BMW can design a better system (something they might be doing already).
Sometimes I do wonder whether riders need to apply a bit more common sense though. For example I was taught by my father to use engine braking whenever possible. In my teens we lived in Ecuador and descending mountain passes could only be negotiated with engine braking as the brake fluid would soon start boiling if the brakes were used continously for 30 minutes. Today instructors tell their charges not downshift at all.
As for perfoming numerous emergency stops in succession - how many sports cars have actually survived the treatment they receive on Top Gear? On the GS I am aware of the brake system and behave accordingly - for example unless I have to I do not keep my foot on the rear brake at traffic lights - not the way you are taught but quite OK as far as I am concerned.
It might be an overly complex system but when they work they have amazing stopping power. I guess if the german public prosecutor does decide that the brake system is unsafe (they are now investigating) BMW will have to replace the system on over 200000 bikes worldwide. Until then I intend to keep my wits about me and be sensible when riding a fantastic bike.
Walter
nemezis
Guest
TV show is online now!
The German TV Show PLUSMINUS "ARE BMW MOTORCYCLES LIFE THREATENING?" is now online:
Video from TV Station ARD
The official transcript of this show is here: Transcript TV Show PLUSMINUS
In the right column thre are several documents like a survey of the German auto-club ADAC ("Have you experienced problems with these brakes..."), questions from the journalist to BMW and a statement of BMW.
My experience with Google translation is a good one, since the translation ist most of the time ugly but there is no problem to understand the message.
The German TV Show PLUSMINUS "ARE BMW MOTORCYCLES LIFE THREATENING?" is now online:
Video from TV Station ARD
The official transcript of this show is here: Transcript TV Show PLUSMINUS
In the right column thre are several documents like a survey of the German auto-club ADAC ("Have you experienced problems with these brakes..."), questions from the journalist to BMW and a statement of BMW.
My experience with Google translation is a good one, since the translation ist most of the time ugly but there is no problem to understand the message.
Perhaps I should read this first, but this is the google translation....
BMW motorcycles drove off lethal? HR, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 if the brake not along-played, can become delicate it... Months no more meter. Because the brake system fails. Five times already it passed Kipke. Brake problems with 15,000 euro a machine? Of the noble mark BMW? Kipke had luck, the kornfeld was its last rescue. Mortal danger also with attorney Christoph Hattig. Its reaching into emptiness took place at 120 on the motorway. Also a professional running driver has it gets omission of the braking force, only one of the problems. If at the BMW's the system steps out, also much-praised EXP. malfunctions alone four accidents with safety trainings General German Automobile Association in the last weeks. Franc Rudolph fell heavily because with brake exercises the ABS failed and the front wheel blocked. At the Hockenheim ring already had an accident before two years running driver Michael cutter. A professional, it was even German super Moto Cup winner. Its BMWS is only scrap iron. 2004 one can exclude BMW know maintenance error since in the middle of, because the motorcycle was old a half year, 1,500 km on the Tacho. And also with the other cases it concerns nearly new machines. The worst however: BMW is for a long time well-known the brake problem. We experience from the General German Automobile Association. "already center last yearly of references of members got danger for road user" "we, that informed us about brake problems with General German Automobile Association motorcycles. Whereupon we wrote BMW down. There one did not see a cause becoming active. We estimate the problem as safety-relevant, particularly for motorradfahrer. In addition, for all there a danger goes to other operating express takers out ", says Ruprecht Mueller, who is responsible for motorcycle tests at the General German Automobile Association as an engineer. Less braking force and blocking tires we the rennomierten two-wheeler consultant Peter Goltz meet. He explains the characteristics of the brake system of the BMW machines to us. "this vehicle has a ABS with braking force reinforcement. That means: They pull the brake with a relatively small energy expenditure, have however a very high braking action by the reinforcement. If the system precipitates, you must change over from one on the other second. That means: They must spend substantially more strength, in order to accomplish the braking. In addition it comes still that then also the ABS precipitates and thus over brakes it also to blocks the wheels comes. And that is already very dangerous for a driver ", says Peter Goltz. The interview left BMW bursts mixes part churches past Saturday. International BMW Bikermeeting. Here the company wants opposite [ plus minus a statement to give. But the agreed upon interview date bursts. BMW calls few hours off before after a crisis meeting. Reason: The brake problem is too complex! Warning to the selling chain however [ plus minus searches led past week to a warning to all dealers, whom one gave also us officially. Related to the four accidents with safety training it means: "can be brought in the combination of weakened battery and repeated emergency brake exercise Jobs and Career Research Institute to his technical borders. Blocking the wheels cannot be excluded then no more." No recall, change at the system therefore does not warn BMW expressly: to limit "the number of the briefly one behind the other accomplished exercises to emergency braking on five cycles." In the normal traffic this problem can not occur, protests BMW. For a recall that world-wide 250,000 motorcycles concerned does not see a cause, also changes in the technology to BMW it is not to give. "consultant Goltz can occur can it hardly seize also in the traffic". After its opinion BMW with the restriction of the brake problem tries to press before the responsibility for its customers. "I believe the fact that the problem is much larger than in the statement described. One cannot limit the losses of the brake system to driving safety trainings. The situations, where an undervoltage in the system arises and by it the brake booster and the ABS cause fail, can happen also in the completely normal traffic ", say consultant Peter Goltz. "with the age the losses" Ruprecht Mueller of the General German Automobile Association rise go out of the fact that the problems with the rising age of the machines will strengthened arise. "primarily it is now important that all customers are informed that this problem can emerge with several strong brakings. Furthermore naturally the system is to be improved in such a way that there are not these weaknesses any longer ", so Ruprecht Mueller of the General German Automobile Association. Many dealers are notionless [ plus minus end of past week was on the way with hidden camera. BMW insures us all dealers is informed, for scarcely one week is the warning raus. We ask for with contract dealers, spend us as customers: Do they know somewhat from a warning of safety trainings? A discussion: Dealer: "no, you can brake completely normally. They can make a safety training completely normal." [ plus minus: "without problems?" Dealer: "without problems, there gibt's none." [ plus minus: "as many brakings as one wants?" Dealer: "you can want as many brakings to make as it. If I drive outside, there I would have to then count. Once, twice, three times, that is complete Quatsch. Then I might drive no more motorcycle." Warning: Nil return! With the next contract dealer we go into the workshop: Dealer 1: "say times know you something of a warning?" Dealer 2: "no I do not know anything there." [ plus minus: "thus there is nothing from BMW safety trainings?" Dealer 1: "nothing at all, safety training of BMW gibt's further." Assistance: Nil return! Only of four tested dealers answer knew, with our concerns we was however alone left. Dealer: "is not discussed turns you at BMW in Munich, so long the problem." [ plus minus: "thus there I do not have to be concerned?" Dealer: "which you are to worry there?" The public prosecutor's office deals determined in such a way BMW thus with safety-relevant topics. In the meantime the public prosecutor's office determines because of endangerment of the traffic, and also the force travel Federal Office took up investigations. Eingefleischte BMW fans such as refuge Kipke would have never expected such a behavior of their "Lieblinsmarke". The 65-Jaehrige is bitterly disappointed like many different.
HTH,
BMW motorcycles drove off lethal? HR, Tuesday, 5 July 2005 if the brake not along-played, can become delicate it... Months no more meter. Because the brake system fails. Five times already it passed Kipke. Brake problems with 15,000 euro a machine? Of the noble mark BMW? Kipke had luck, the kornfeld was its last rescue. Mortal danger also with attorney Christoph Hattig. Its reaching into emptiness took place at 120 on the motorway. Also a professional running driver has it gets omission of the braking force, only one of the problems. If at the BMW's the system steps out, also much-praised EXP. malfunctions alone four accidents with safety trainings General German Automobile Association in the last weeks. Franc Rudolph fell heavily because with brake exercises the ABS failed and the front wheel blocked. At the Hockenheim ring already had an accident before two years running driver Michael cutter. A professional, it was even German super Moto Cup winner. Its BMWS is only scrap iron. 2004 one can exclude BMW know maintenance error since in the middle of, because the motorcycle was old a half year, 1,500 km on the Tacho. And also with the other cases it concerns nearly new machines. The worst however: BMW is for a long time well-known the brake problem. We experience from the General German Automobile Association. "already center last yearly of references of members got danger for road user" "we, that informed us about brake problems with General German Automobile Association motorcycles. Whereupon we wrote BMW down. There one did not see a cause becoming active. We estimate the problem as safety-relevant, particularly for motorradfahrer. In addition, for all there a danger goes to other operating express takers out ", says Ruprecht Mueller, who is responsible for motorcycle tests at the General German Automobile Association as an engineer. Less braking force and blocking tires we the rennomierten two-wheeler consultant Peter Goltz meet. He explains the characteristics of the brake system of the BMW machines to us. "this vehicle has a ABS with braking force reinforcement. That means: They pull the brake with a relatively small energy expenditure, have however a very high braking action by the reinforcement. If the system precipitates, you must change over from one on the other second. That means: They must spend substantially more strength, in order to accomplish the braking. In addition it comes still that then also the ABS precipitates and thus over brakes it also to blocks the wheels comes. And that is already very dangerous for a driver ", says Peter Goltz. The interview left BMW bursts mixes part churches past Saturday. International BMW Bikermeeting. Here the company wants opposite [ plus minus a statement to give. But the agreed upon interview date bursts. BMW calls few hours off before after a crisis meeting. Reason: The brake problem is too complex! Warning to the selling chain however [ plus minus searches led past week to a warning to all dealers, whom one gave also us officially. Related to the four accidents with safety training it means: "can be brought in the combination of weakened battery and repeated emergency brake exercise Jobs and Career Research Institute to his technical borders. Blocking the wheels cannot be excluded then no more." No recall, change at the system therefore does not warn BMW expressly: to limit "the number of the briefly one behind the other accomplished exercises to emergency braking on five cycles." In the normal traffic this problem can not occur, protests BMW. For a recall that world-wide 250,000 motorcycles concerned does not see a cause, also changes in the technology to BMW it is not to give. "consultant Goltz can occur can it hardly seize also in the traffic". After its opinion BMW with the restriction of the brake problem tries to press before the responsibility for its customers. "I believe the fact that the problem is much larger than in the statement described. One cannot limit the losses of the brake system to driving safety trainings. The situations, where an undervoltage in the system arises and by it the brake booster and the ABS cause fail, can happen also in the completely normal traffic ", say consultant Peter Goltz. "with the age the losses" Ruprecht Mueller of the General German Automobile Association rise go out of the fact that the problems with the rising age of the machines will strengthened arise. "primarily it is now important that all customers are informed that this problem can emerge with several strong brakings. Furthermore naturally the system is to be improved in such a way that there are not these weaknesses any longer ", so Ruprecht Mueller of the General German Automobile Association. Many dealers are notionless [ plus minus end of past week was on the way with hidden camera. BMW insures us all dealers is informed, for scarcely one week is the warning raus. We ask for with contract dealers, spend us as customers: Do they know somewhat from a warning of safety trainings? A discussion: Dealer: "no, you can brake completely normally. They can make a safety training completely normal." [ plus minus: "without problems?" Dealer: "without problems, there gibt's none." [ plus minus: "as many brakings as one wants?" Dealer: "you can want as many brakings to make as it. If I drive outside, there I would have to then count. Once, twice, three times, that is complete Quatsch. Then I might drive no more motorcycle." Warning: Nil return! With the next contract dealer we go into the workshop: Dealer 1: "say times know you something of a warning?" Dealer 2: "no I do not know anything there." [ plus minus: "thus there is nothing from BMW safety trainings?" Dealer 1: "nothing at all, safety training of BMW gibt's further." Assistance: Nil return! Only of four tested dealers answer knew, with our concerns we was however alone left. Dealer: "is not discussed turns you at BMW in Munich, so long the problem." [ plus minus: "thus there I do not have to be concerned?" Dealer: "which you are to worry there?" The public prosecutor's office deals determined in such a way BMW thus with safety-relevant topics. In the meantime the public prosecutor's office determines because of endangerment of the traffic, and also the force travel Federal Office took up investigations. Eingefleischte BMW fans such as refuge Kipke would have never expected such a behavior of their "Lieblinsmarke". The 65-Jaehrige is bitterly disappointed like many different.
HTH,
Chalkster
Registered user
Just got back from a 3 week trip round Morocco with tempreatures of 45 in the shade, did 3000 miles up hill and down as well as off road work, two up, hammered the brakes to death and never had a problem of any kind. just worn out foot pegs and grazed Boxes 
03 GS 1150 ABS with servo.
20 out of 200,000 ??????????
Chalkster
03 GS 1150 ABS with servo.
20 out of 200,000 ??????????
Chalkster
Le singe
Guest
Chalkster,why did you post that?
It's the last thing Dr ABS is going to want to see,you'll spoil his fun!
It's the last thing Dr ABS is going to want to see,you'll spoil his fun!
guitarman
Guest
Re: Plusminus on ARD
I'm interested in how you practice brake failure in an emergency stop situation. Most of us will use engine braking but that isn't going to stop you when you need to really slam on the anchors.
The idea of keeping "my wits about me" and riding sensibly because of this is total anathema to me. One failure is too many. Call me old-fashioned but I expect my brakes to work the same every time and I don't want to ride with even the tiniest fear that my brakes might fail.
It's certainly put me off buying a 1200 until they've sorted out the problem.
Cheers
Dick
wut said:
I'm interested in how you practice brake failure in an emergency stop situation. Most of us will use engine braking but that isn't going to stop you when you need to really slam on the anchors.
The idea of keeping "my wits about me" and riding sensibly because of this is total anathema to me. One failure is too many. Call me old-fashioned but I expect my brakes to work the same every time and I don't want to ride with even the tiniest fear that my brakes might fail.
It's certainly put me off buying a 1200 until they've sorted out the problem.
Cheers
Dick
nemezis
Guest
They say you may now only brake hard (like "panic-/emergency-braking") rapidly with integrated brakes 5 times.
Original Statement in German language
Original Statement in German language
Le singe
Guest
So BMW are launching an investigation after a complaint from one customer.
Was that you Dr ABS?
The problem doesn't sound quite as bad as you are alleging.
Why haven't all the journalists you keep quoting made formal complaints to BMW if the system is as bad as you are alleging?
Are you a disgruntled ex-employee of BMW?
Was that you Dr ABS?
The problem doesn't sound quite as bad as you are alleging.
Why haven't all the journalists you keep quoting made formal complaints to BMW if the system is as bad as you are alleging?
Are you a disgruntled ex-employee of BMW?
nemezis
Guest
Think about. Think!
Kropotkin
Registered user
It's a conspiracy, I tell you!!!
nemezis
Guest
Kropotkin said:
How do you call this: You are speaking with an editor (motorbike mag) about BMW brakes and he suggest you contacting the press officer of BMW motorrad.
Later you ask him, the editor again, and he tells you that he won't ever talk with you again and that you should definitly talk with the BMW press officer (and not with him, the editor).
Other example: The manager of a publishing house recently wrote a message to me and CC to BMW press officer and his editor of the magazine.
There is no conspiracy. And there was never conspiracy. The only thing there is and was is the issue money!
Le singe
Guest
Why won't BMW pay you?
How much do you want?
How much do you want?
nemezis
Guest
Le singe said:
Why don't you call the press officer of BMW Motorrad, Germany?
Let's stick to the facts. BMW will notify its dealers that it must warn customers that the bikes can only be braked hard 5 times.
Do you know any motorbike that is sold with this warning?
viatormundi
Guest
some comments
I watched the tv program and read the articles posted on the forum (can german). It is highly possible that journalists found an interesting topic and dig deeper but one thing makes me believe that this issue is possibly serious. In the tv program they interview the president of ADAC. ADAC is very respected traffic safety institution in Germany and I believe them more than reporters. And ADAC claims also that there is a problem.
Well the problem is not proven yet but the current hypothesis is that by repetitive heavy braking the servo system drains too much electricity and the supporting battery or electricity system fails and servo doesn't work. And ABS becomes unavaliable too.
BMW states in the internal memo that this hypothetical situation shouldn't happen in daily traffic. But there are many of us practicing on different circuits and there repetitive hard braking is common.
Well the prosecutor and the expert team is looking at the case and ADAC is involved in the investigation. If but big if since BMW has huge lobby power in Germany, the expert team concludes that the brakes are faulty then it will cost BMW a lot to replace them and apparently they don't have a replacement solution at the moment.
I watched the tv program and read the articles posted on the forum (can german). It is highly possible that journalists found an interesting topic and dig deeper but one thing makes me believe that this issue is possibly serious. In the tv program they interview the president of ADAC. ADAC is very respected traffic safety institution in Germany and I believe them more than reporters. And ADAC claims also that there is a problem.
Well the problem is not proven yet but the current hypothesis is that by repetitive heavy braking the servo system drains too much electricity and the supporting battery or electricity system fails and servo doesn't work. And ABS becomes unavaliable too.
BMW states in the internal memo that this hypothetical situation shouldn't happen in daily traffic. But there are many of us practicing on different circuits and there repetitive hard braking is common.
Well the prosecutor and the expert team is looking at the case and ADAC is involved in the investigation. If but big if since BMW has huge lobby power in Germany, the expert team concludes that the brakes are faulty then it will cost BMW a lot to replace them and apparently they don't have a replacement solution at the moment.
Le singe
Guest
It was suggested to Dr ABS that we should now await the outcome of the enquiry,but I think he already has decided himself.
I'm going to say no more.
I'm going to say no more.
nemezis
Guest
Re: some comments
Well done! Perfect summary of the situation. Thank you!
Well done! Perfect summary of the situation. Thank you!
nemezis
Guest
In the German newspaper DER TAGESSPIEGEL the press officer is quoted again: The problem with undervoltage/ABS failure may only happen on motorcycle training courses. The press officer of BMW Motorrad:
"More than five full brake cycles directly one behind the other are not to be practiced therefore"
Original: DER TAGESSPIEGEL
Google Translation: DER TAGESSPIEGEL
"More than five full brake cycles directly one behind the other are not to be practiced therefore"
Original: DER TAGESSPIEGEL
Google Translation: DER TAGESSPIEGEL
ag1s
Guest
Le singe said:
I think this is a fantastic idea!
