Getting the 'White Finger'....

[FidoNick]

Does anyone else out there suffer with white finger? If so, what do you do about it??

I've been reading a bit about raynaud's syndrome (which I may or may not have), but their suggestions for what to do about it aren't really aren't practical for Tossers . I'm also not about to give up coffee.

I ride a K-series bike (for my sins - go-on, stone me) and perhaps there's something about the frequency which is triggering the white finger(s). Perhaps someone has some experience of this and swopping between a K and an R? I never seem to get a suitable loan bite to do a useful comparison.

Gloves are pretty meaningless; the thicker the glove, the less benefit from the heated grips. One alternative is to wear an extra thermal thingy wotsit on my wrists; perhaps I'll give it a go.

So if anyone can pass any advice, I'd really appreciate it. My typical commute is 90 mins in typical British weather and I'm often struggling to get my lid off as I can't undo the straps...... Thanks!

 

[brassmonkey001]

Have you actually been diagnosed with anything?
What is your work history? Have you been using vibratory tools for a long time? (Stop sniggering at the back!)
Could it be your glove wriststrap is too tight or your jacket is cutting off circulation to your hands?

I find it unlikely that it's caused by the bike, although it could be aggravating it.

 

[STUBBS]

are you gripping the bars to tightly

 

[alimey4u2]

Hitting the bars fortnightly....

 

[Slowdown]

My wife has Raynaud's Syndrome. It's helped by gloves and by back/stomach/arm pits (once I've washed)

It's one the main things she hates about bikes - she just has to sit and suffer.

Keep us posted on anything you find (other than alcohol) that helps.

 

[PIGGLET]

Dunno whether it's white finger or not but I sometimes get uncomfortable tingly fingers on a bike in the cold. It never bothers me on the GS as I use thin summer gloves and muffs and which combined with heated grips means super toasty paws

 

[FidoNick]

I’ve not tried to get a diagnosis – after all, the response to ‘What can I do about it?’ will probably be along the lines of ‘Wear thicker gloves’, ‘don’t let your hands get cold’ or ‘don’t expose your hands to high frequency vibrations’. None of which will really help…

As for gripping the bars too tightly – well, it stops me from falling down, which is useful except when it’s my turn to pay. In reality, though, I try to keep relaxed and I certainly don’t grip hard enough to get fatigued, though I have noticed an improvement if I keep the fingers loose. And Vibrations? Only on a bike…. That’s why I’m wondering if it’s something to do with the fact I ride a K12GT and if a R12GS would save my pinkies (or whities); different ride position and lower frequency vibrations. Again, when I’m doing a lot of motorway stuff with the cruise on, the fingers are better than when there’s a lot of clutch & throttle work.

I’m going to try to wrap my wrists in neoprene or something similar to keep that bit warm and also stop wearing my watch on the bike. I’ll let you know if there’s any difference.

Oh – I read somewhere that paprika at the end of socks helps keep feet warm. Think I’ll leave that one for the moment. Especially if it’s about to rain….

 

[FidoNick]

Maybe someone can suggest suitable muffs for use on a GT - I've heard the usual ones press against levers at speed, disengaging the cruise....

 

[longdog]

Maybe someone can suggest suitable muffs for use on a GT - I've heard the usual ones press against levers at speed, disengaging the cruise....

There are a model of Tucano Urbano muffs, (as sold by our very own ValH on this site), that allow you to fit the bar weights through the muffs, thus keeping them in position and preventing them pressing against the levers.

I know ValH supplies the type without this facility for the GS and others, but as he is supplying them, perhaps he can find out about the other type for you?

 

[Aretsukusu]

I’ve not tried to get a diagnosis – after all, the response to ‘What can I do about it?’ will probably be along the lines of ‘Wear thicker gloves’, ‘don’t let your hands get cold’ or ‘don’t expose your hands to high frequency vibrations’. None of which will really help…

As for gripping the bars too tightly – well, it stops me from falling down, which is useful except when it’s my turn to pay. In reality, though, I try to keep relaxed and I certainly don’t grip hard enough to get fatigued, though I have noticed an improvement if I keep the fingers loose. And Vibrations? Only on a bike…. That’s why I’m wondering if it’s something to do with the fact I ride a K12GT and if a R12GS would save my pinkies (or whities); different ride position and lower frequency vibrations. Again, when I’m doing a lot of motorway stuff with the cruise on, the fingers are better than when there’s a lot of clutch & throttle work.

I’m going to try to wrap my wrists in neoprene or something similar to keep that bit warm and also stop wearing my watch on the bike. I’ll let you know if there’s any difference.

Oh – I read somewhere that paprika at the end of socks helps keep feet warm. Think I’ll leave that one for the moment. Especially if it’s about to rain….

As an " 'elf n safety" nerd (when I'm not hooning about on the bike), you'll need to keep your hands as warm as possible to maintain open circulation when its cold, so muff, heated grips & decent gloves will all help. Maintaining core temperature is also critical, as it helps if the bloods warm when it gets to your hands!

It'd also help if you could reduce the amount of vibration being transmitted from the bars to your hands, there were a few threads on here about a product called "barsnake" or using lead shot in the bars to reduce transmitted vibes.

The boring h&s solution would be to reduce exposure to the causation (not riding the bike as far or as often etc etc etc), but i didnt think you'd go for that!!

Hope this helps

 

[The Slow Granger]

Hey this is getting wierd - second H&S nerd here!

as above, one tip from me is NOT to go for multi layer gloves as you actually make it harder to exercise the digits once encased. Try Halfords for some squidgy stuff to wrap on the grips so you can exercise fingers on the go. I also conciously do this on long rides before problems start.

Like many I have found muffs to be the perfect solution to my own poor circulation. Muffs mean normal gloves, effective bar heaters, reduced water ingress and less thermal transfer by convection/windchill factor.

VWF usually affects certain digits first - although the condition can also be all of them. If its all of them it could also be circulation in general or even linked to an existing problem such as rsi from keyboard use which is then manifesting when riding.

There may be a physio around here somewhere that can tell us which nerves/tendons may be causing problems and how to overcome by bar risers etc. Skippy had some excellent advice regarding special mods from the disability riding centre (?).

I'll call him and ask more,,,, Phewwwit pweeeewwww Skips,, here Skips,,,,

Caffene (and fags) is a major culprit in this area - go on join the green tea brigade for half of the daily intake. There are some really good loose teas now so go to a specialist so its a treat not a chore - but don't go for the cheap and horrible strawberry jam versions!. Difficult I know but you will get noticable improvement if you can reduce the coffee intake.

Steve

 

[digga]

FidoN
What is your past work history??

Vibratory tools for any length of time?
Is it both hands? or just one part of a hand (you know what i mean!)

If not, its not VWF!! most likely poor posture/positioning,poor circulation or any number of extraneous reasons.

I have VWF... first 2 fingers primarily on the right hand.

The reason for this is that many operating switches are on the RHS of the tool The right hand operates and the Left balancesand controls the tool.

If i hold onto the throttle for any length of time i get the tingles and they start to go 'dead', the cold doesn't help matters either.
If i'm on a M'way slog i use a throttle locker...(Jaws Motorcycles...very good) other than that it doesn't really affect me that much as i ride with a couple of fingers over the brake lever..
( p.s...having typed all that i ride an R1150R)

 

[FidoNick]

Hi Digga – past work history is very un-manual. Lifting spirits is about as energetic as I get (that along with jumping to conclusions, chasing down blind alleys and digging holes for myself). Both hands show symptoms , but not all over; some fingers much more than others, though I couldn’t tell you which ones. Probably the coldest ones. Certainly they show classic white patches – though WTF is VWF? Maybe I’ve missed summut?

I suppose I could reduce coffee. But that’ll be a last resort. I'll do some diggin' for some muffs though.

Doesn't help that I've just discoverdd my left grip isn't heating.... Next service in a week, so I can cope with that.

 

[Aretsukusu]

Hi Digga – past work history is very un-manual. Lifting spirits is about as energetic as I get (that along with jumping to conclusions, chasing down blind alleys and digging holes for myself). Both hands show symptoms , but not all over; some fingers much more than others, though I couldn’t tell you which ones. Probably the coldest ones. Certainly they show classic white patches – though WTF is VWF? Maybe I’ve missed summut?

VWF = Vibration White Finger (now known as HAVS, Hand Arm Vibration Syndrome) Sorry for nerding you out! Have a look at the HSE website; http://www.hse.gov.uk/vibration/ for more nerdy info!

I had a mate I used to go scuba diving with and he suffered something fierce afterwards, but had never got his hands dirty in his life.

I wouldn't dismiss the bike as a cause of VWF as I know some compensation claims have been defended by employers on this basis. It comes down to amount of exposure and frequency of the vibrations (as per previous posts).

Raynauds or VWF, prevention of the symptoms will be the same. The better you maintain your hands now may prevent further damage and possibly retard the condition slightly.

 

[Redboots]

Had white finger for all the years I have ridden bikes and sailed boats and thats a lot.
Basically its piss-poor circulation and there seems to be little to be done about it.
Every time I'm on the bike and its below about 16c, some of them are going white after 5-10 miles. As you say, its not all the fingers that go together.
I have gone over, rather than round a few roundabouts in my time as the hands were too cold to feel anything or react.

Heated grips are next to useless. Heat source in the wrong place... the cold comes at you from the outside.

Solution?

Electric gloves. I use the Warm and Safe gloves from the US. They have a proper electronic control... beware of copies...
These gloves incorporate a plastic layer so it blocks the wind... I find that most Gore-Tex stuff soon stops working and is overrated/ovepriced... it also makes them waterproof.

I had some Widder's but they were not waterproof and therefore not windproof. OK behind a good fairing but not otherwise.

I also use the W&S heated lining when it gets really cold... 10c and less

I got mine in the States but someone here sells them...

John

 

[digga]

Had white finger for all the years I have ridden bikes and sailed boats and thats a lot.
Basically its piss-poor circulation and there seems to be little to be done about it.
Every time I'm on the bike and its below about 16c, some of them are going white after 5-10 miles. As you say, its not all the fingers that go together.
I have gone over, rather than round a few roundabouts in my time as the hands were too cold to feel anything or react.

Heated grips are next to useless. Heat source in the wrong place... the cold comes at you from the outside.

Solution?

Electric gloves. I use the Warm and Safe gloves from the US. They have a proper electronic control... beware of copies...
These gloves incorporate a plastic layer so it blocks the wind... I find that most Gore-Tex stuff soon stops working and is overrated/ovepriced... it also makes them waterproof.

I had some Widder's but they were not waterproof and therefore not windproof. OK behind a good fairing but not otherwise.

I also use the W&S heated lining when it gets really cold... 10c and less

I got mine in the States but someone here sells them...

John

as i understand it in a un-nerdy way... VWF is damage to nerves and blood vessels. When the said area gets cold the vessel closes and not as much blood flows,consequently the nerve looses some of its 'power' due to lack of blood.. if you ain't used vibratory tools.. you don't have vwf... its Raynauds syndrome.

As John said... heated grips are a nice sensation (bit like walking into a room with a roaring log fire) but the heat is in the wrong place under the palm...

I caan see the benefit of the heated liners...might have to look into that one

VWF type sypthoms can come from RSI.. i think somebody else has mentioned this earlier, can also be affected by Carpel Tunnel Syndrome as well.


Best idea of a cure..... amputation

 

[Redboots]

If i hold onto the throttle for any length of time i get the tingles and they start to go 'dead', the cold doesn't help matters either.

Ah, well, that could be Carpal Tunnel.
Do the tingles go if you dangle your arm/hand beside you for a few seconds?

I also had that but got it sorted about 5 years ago... they did the Cubital at the same time for good measure.
The carpal affects the fingers up to and including, half the ring finger. The cubital is the other half of the finger and the little finger.

While that cured the tingles, it did not stop the white finger, but the gloves did.

John

 

[FidoNick]

Thanks for all your comments - I like the sound of the W&S gloves, though will try with muffs first. I'd rather use thinner gloves and keep the wind / cold out than have to plug in yet another cable.... Keep the ideas coming and I'll let you know what works

 

[E. Buygum]

I have the same problem...see:

http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158063

A lot of the above on this thread partly works for me- esp the bit about keeping core temperature up. The problem appears for me when both a bit cold + experiencing vibration. I have some historic carpal tunnel problems from cycling (too much weight on handlebars over long distance) but don't like the thought of an operation.

For me gloves need to be quite loose; I use silk inner gloves, too. Trouble is, if the gloves are a bit loose, the fingers are probably too long which isn't good.

 

[Redboots]

I have some historic carpal tunnel problems from cycling (too much weight on handlebars over long distance) but don't like the thought of an operation..

If you just have the carpal tunnel done, they can do it under a local anaesthetic which means you can watch

John