GS or Africa twin?

[Bendy toy]

I don't see what's wrong with tyre inner tubes (its no a 150mph sports bike) and we know the GS final drive is not exactly bullet proof. With all their resources, I can't see why bike makers have not developed a fully enclosed drive chain system that not some version of Honda Cub tin box chain case.

 

[PDiddy]

I can fix a chain at the road side you cannot say the same for a final drive -

 

[comberjohn]

I think it has more in common with a KTM. Except for being a lot cheaper!
Not really to my tastes, but does seem to be good value.
Didn't realise it ran tubed tyres. Always been wary of tubed tyres since the front wheel on my Honda 350 picked up a big screw at about 40mph and deflated fast. The bike moved across the road and lay down. Nothing I could do. Fortunately, nothing coming the other way.
Agree with bendy that if manufacturers are going to continue to use chains, it's about time they offered real world protection for them. Wouldn't suit all types of buyers but there are plenty of models where it would be a plus.
Even a fully integrated chain oiler would be a big advantage. Although, I notice BMW offer one as an accessory for their chain driven models.
Notice on the AT forum there have been a few issues with switches and corrosion. Wait a minute, they do have something in common with a GS!
Final drives are a touchy subject with me at the moment.

 

[cookie]

I can't see why bike makers have not developed a fully enclosed drive chain system that not some version of Honda Cub tin box chain case.

a modern chain will probably last 20K+ miles if well looked after. ignore it completely and it would likely do 10K and that's more than many owners will do.

any kind of chain case will look gash, and will put buyers off anything but the most prosaic of bikes IMO.

 

[Deleted account 190920001]

This whole thing with chains is way overblown. Since changing bikes after the initial 1000 mile adjust it has settled to around 2000-2500 per adjust and a scoosh of some kind of chain lube when I feel like it or the chain sliders start making a noise. Lots of people are reporting an easy 25000 miles and a few that gives a damn and have an auto lube are up in the 40000 miles. Even the 25000 miles is way more than I got out the FD on my GSA and a new chain is a hell of a lot cheaper than a recon FD never mind a new FD. Even the maintenance some terrified owners are putting into FD oil changes and spline lube is more than I am putting into the chain. So, what is the problem with a chain?

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

^^^^^^^Exactly^^^^^^^^

Not to mention the lack of drive train backlash and instant power take up.

Andres

 

[King Key]

I like the cleanliness and lack of regular maintenance of the shaft drive, no matter what form of lubricant you choose with a chain they are always a dirty piece of 'external engineering' that sprays crap everywhere, efficient and light no doubt but nevertheless grimy and filthy.

 

[Bendy toy]

I can fix a chain at the road side you cannot say the same for a final drive -

You can squirt oil on it and adjust the chain tension but what happens when it separates and ditto when gearbox or sprocket carrier bearings go titsup.

The BMW FD often springs an oil leak but very rarely leaves you stuck by the roadside.

 

[Bendy toy]

I can fix a chain at the road side you cannot say the same for a final drive -

You can squirt oil on it and adjust the chain tension but what happens when it separates and ditto when gearbox or sprocket carrier bearings go titsup.

The BMW FD often springs an oil leak but very rarely leaves you stuck by the roadside.

 

[Bendy toy]

Didn't realise it ran tubed tyres. Always been wary of tubed tyres since the front wheel on my Honda 350 picked up a big screw at about 40mph and deflated fast. The bike moved across the road and lay down. Nothing I could do. Fortunately, nothing coming the other way.

Slime (the green version) or Puncturesafe in the tube will deal with slow punctures from nails etc. For bigger stuff it slows the rate of deflation so you have chance to do something before its falling off time.

Agree with bendy that if manufacturers are going to continue to use chains, it's about time they offered real world protection for them. Wouldn't suit all types of buyers but there are plenty of models where it would be a plus.

Heres one way to build a good looking chain drive. Run the chain inside the swing arm tube with a gearbox size sprocket at both ends. Then an epicyclic box in the wheel hub would drop the gear ration to a sensible speed. All lubricated with the same gear oil. It would be more costly than an open chain but a great deal less costly than BMWs fancy back end.

Even a fully integrated chain oiler would be a big advantage. Although, I notice BMW offer one as an accessory for their chain driven models.
Notice on the AT forum there have been a few issues with switches and corrosion. Wait a minute, they do have something in common with a GS!
Final drives are a touchy subject with me at the moment. [/QUOTE]

My MZ250 ate chains. It had rubber gaiters over the top and bottom chain runs but they were too narrow to take sealed O-ring chains. I'd get 10K from a chain if I was lucky and it was a bar steward to change the chain. I fitted a Scot Oiler to the front sprocket. Oh no! Cant be done! Bad idea. etc. etc. The rear sprocket was fully enclosed in a cast case to the oiler could not be fitted there. The oiler unit was strapped by the steering headstock and worked a treat. I believe dropping oil on the unloaded side of the chain allowed time to soak into the links before the chain loaded up. My chain was probably 50% worn when fitted (5K miles). After 17K I had still not adjusted the chain. The wear rate had virtually stopped.
This was a simple ordinary drive chain with rubber tubes top and bottom to protect the chain. With an oiler added to the mix it worked a treat.

Norton did something similar with the Rotary Police bikes but ran the lot in oil. A chain would last for 80K and still be as new.

 

[Bendy toy]

Didn't realise it ran tubed tyres. Always been wary of tubed tyres since the front wheel on my Honda 350 picked up a big screw at about 40mph and deflated fast. The bike moved across the road and lay down. Nothing I could do. Fortunately, nothing coming the other way.

Slime (the green version) or Puncturesafe in the tube will deal with slow punctures from nails etc. For bigger stuff it slows the rate of deflation so you have chance to do something before its falling off time.

Agree with bendy that if manufacturers are going to continue to use chains, it's about time they offered real world protection for them. Wouldn't suit all types of buyers but there are plenty of models where it would be a plus.

Heres one way to build a good looking chain drive. Run the chain inside the swing arm tube with a gearbox size sprocket at both ends. Then an epicyclic box in the wheel hub would drop the gear ration to a sensible speed. All lubricated with the same gear oil. It would be more costly than an open chain but a great deal less costly than BMWs fancy back end.

Even a fully integrated chain oiler would be a big advantage. Although, I notice BMW offer one as an accessory for their chain driven models.
Final drives are a touchy subject with me at the moment.

My MZ250 ate chains - odd for a 21bhp bike with enclosed chain but it wasn't especially high tech. It had rubber gaiters over the top and bottom chain runs but they were too narrow to take sealed O-ring chains. I'd get 10K from a plain chain and it was a bar steward to change the chain.

The rear sprocket was fully enclosed in a cast case so a Scot Oiler could not be fitted as normal. I fitted the Oiler outlet to the FRONT sprocket. Oh no! Cant be done! Bad idea. etc. etc. The oiler unit was strapped by the steering headstock and it worked a treat.

My chain was probably 50% worn when fitted (5K miles). After 17K I had still not been adjusted. The wear rate had virtually stopped. This was a simple ordinary drive chain with rubber protection tubes top and bottom. I believe dropping oil on the unloaded side of the chain allowed time to soak into the links before the chain loaded up.

Norton did a similar rubber tube enclosure on the Rotary Police bikes but ran the lot in oil. A chain would last for 80K and still be as new.

 

[cookie]

no matter what form of lubricant you choose with a chain they are always a dirty piece of 'external engineering' that sprays crap everywhere

The BMW FD often springs an oil leak

so nothing in it there then?

 

[Bendy toy]

...no matter what form of lubricant you choose with a chain they are always a dirty piece of 'external engineering' that sprays crap everywhere, efficient and light no doubt but nevertheless grimy and filthy.

Fully agree but TBH its not the chain's fault. A chain running in oil will last indefinitely. A double row with smaller links is even better. However, bike makers parrot each other and don't like to think out of the box. Open chains work on race bikes because they allow easy gear ratio changes and are replaced after every race. But they are totally crap for day to day use. They are however "cool" so people like DID came up with O ring chains. Its an engineered bodge but solved the thinking problems.

Bike makers follow the crowd and nobody wants to think out of the box so we get crown and pinion shaft drives or open chains. Neither of which are especially good.

 

[Deleted account 190920001]

Seriously any bmw owner slaging off chains in favour of shaft drive need to have a word. Other manufactures shaft drive fair enough but bmw's is a liability.

As far a side of the road stuff when you are on your round the world tour and not just going to Starbucks you can easy carry a chain and sprocket kit. Not so easy with an FD and shaft. It wouldn't be imposing to add a bit of chain in either if something got damaged.

 

[Arsey]

Seriously any bmw owner slaging off chains in favour of shaft drive need to have a word. Other manufactures shaft drive fair enough but bmw's is a liability.

As far a side of the road stuff when you are on your round the world tour and not just going to Starbucks you can easy carry a chain and sprocket kit. Not so easy with an FD and shaft. It wouldn't be imposing to add a bit of chain in either if something got damaged.

True,but then why would anybody even consider taking a heavy unreliable bike like a GS/GSA around the world,unless followed and pampered by a 40 strong back up team and film crew !!

 

[Deleted account 190920001]

True,but then why would anybody even consider taking a heavy unreliable bike like a GS/GSA around the world,unless followed and pampered by a 40 strong back up team and film crew !!

Can't argue with that.

 

[Bendy toy]

But to be fair they quickly dumped the film crew.

But to be fair they had BMW on the end of the phone with fresh bikes when needed.

 

[Greenman14]

If the difference between a GS and an AT comes down to final drives I think we're missing the point; both systems have their pros and cons. The AT ought to be lighter than the GS but it isn't, a GSA ought to have a 21" front wheel but it doesn't, I don't doubt the AT is a fine machine but I think it's more comparable to a KTM than a GS. For a comparable Honda you should look to the Crosstourer.

I've not ridden the AT but even sitting on it the seat is a plank, even worse than my KTM SM, and the screen is going to be too small for touring, so some similarities!

 

[Bendy toy]

Maybe Honda used the hexhead GSA seat as a model of plankyness .

With an across frame engine and transmission, the chain drive makes sense. With an inline engine and transmission, the bevel gear FD makes sense.

If Honda followed the Hossack approach to suspension, I'd find a way to buy. Norman's reworked Ducati is stunning. And its not about cost - the whole idea is to improve handling while avoiding large high precision parts such as tele forks.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

There were things I didn't like on my AT test ride but the seat wasn't one of them, I thought it was very comfy

And, please......... will people stop saying it's more like a KTM than a GS! Is it because you believe the marketing hype that it's biased towards off road?
No way is it anything like a big KTM, not in it's dynamics, off road ability, quality of componants or on road performance.

Andres