High Visibility jacket or vest

bowser said:
You need to assume that every vehicle will pull out into your path every time and ride accordingly, Its a sad fact that with most of us and I include myself in this, better thinking is far more important than better equipment !!!!
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I really thought I was going to get a right slagging off for my statement, but I am pleased that there are a few guys here who agree with me, especially a policeman.

What happened to my 61 year old Dad who was riding to the job he started riding riding to at the age of 15, was an unforgivable lack of respect for the road by a selfish woman driver who claims not to have seen him (I had the pleasure of being a character witness at the inquest)...The only possible explanation is that after waiting for her remote controlled gates to open, she just crossed the road in Dads path. Dad reacted quite correctly, laying his bike down, and sliding. Unfortunatley, another car was waiting behind the woman, under which he slid, killing him instantly.

Whenever I see a car ahead of me, which is waiting or obviously about to make a maneuver in my direction, I turn my head directly towards the driver, and look into the drivers eyes...the fact that I seem to be paying them more attention than normal, seems to make them aware of my approach...and so far it seems to have worked...also studying them so closely makes me aware of what they are about to do, and I am prepared to react if anything goes awry.

The saddest thing about this whole story (apart from our loss) is that the woman escaped with 6 points and a fine which makes a mockery of my fathers wonderful life!

I make no apologies for bringing the generally happy tone of this site down to such a sombre level, but we ALL must learn that many other road users are ignorant, and visibility means nothing!

:rose
 
Sad story indeed.

In my young riding year all the accidents I have had (except for one - going too fast) were another car driver fault - changing lane without looking most of the time. The worst one being being "squashed" between a car and house wall, believe it or not the lady was trying to lit a cigarette with both hands without looking at the road, the sad thing is that that day a girlfriend was at the back, it was her first time on the bike, she was already nervous and promised her that everything would be allright, she flew off the bike and ended it up with cut and bruises and no need to say that she did go back on a bike.
JC
 
AxeGrinder said:
I really thought I was going to get a right slagging off for my statement, but I am pleased that there are a few guys here who agree with me, ............ and visibility means nothing!

:rose
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Sad to hear your story man. I really couldn't agree more. Never, ever would I consider using a dayglo jacket, vest or hi viz clothing. I think personally it detracts from some of the responsibility for other road users to see/lookout for you in the first place. I have ridden since 1979 always with my headlight off. I buy the GS and it pisses me off that it switches on the headlight for me. Ride defensively at all times and assume no one sees you,
"Death before Dayglo"............anyone else remember that slogan?
 
I must say, that I am somewhat surprised that several riders seem to prefer to ride with lights off...

That is something I don't do...I just don't touch my light switch TBH...it's on 99.9% of the time...only time I turn 'em off is when the regulators blown on the CBR (twice now) and I just want to get home.

Read Bowsers offering... "spend your money on extra lights" it costs nothing more than the minuscule amount of extra unleaded driving the alternator to have them on, and can see no no harm in daylight running lights...on California spec bikes (oh I know I know!!), you cannot buy a road bike on which the lights can be turned off...even the indicators light up as standard if I remember correctly, certainly on some bikes (they don't flash till you flick the switch)
 
AxeGrinder said:
I must say, that I am somewhat surprised that several riders seem to prefer to ride with lights off...

That is something I don't do...I just don't touch my light switch TBH...it's on 100% of the time...

Read Bowsers offering... "spend your money on extra lights"
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There is a reason for that, I took part in some research for a university a few years ago, regarding riding with lights on or off, hi viz etc. And some of the results were surprising. Having lights on WILL make you at least twice as visable, however the brain judges speed by the rate at which the size of an image gets bigger as soon as you put a great big light in the middle of the shape you decrease the ability to judge its speed. So there is a trade off, you have to make your own decision as to which you think is most important.

As for hi viz etc the very best thing to be wearing is ALL one colour and preferably the same colour as your bike, you then appear as one large contrasting lump against the background and standout against background clutter, best colours are those that do not normaly appear in nature and are aslo not normaly used as colours for cars buildings etc that way you stand out eveywhere.
If you really want to be safe ride a bright pink bike, with pink jacket and strides, pink helmet and gloves. But who the F---k wants to be that safe !!!!!!!!!
 
bowser said:
There is a reason for that, I took part in some research for a university a few years ago, regarding riding with lights on or off, hi viz etc. And some of the results were surprising. Having lights on WILL make you at least twice as visable, however the brain judges speed by the rate at which the size of an image gets bigger as soon as you put a great big light in the middle of the shape you decrease the ability to judge its speed. So there is a trade off, you have to make your own decision as to which you think is most important.

As for hi viz etc the very best thing to be wearing is ALL one colour and preferably the same colour as your bike, you then appear as one large contrasting lump against the background and standout against background clutter, best colours are those that do not normaly appear in nature and are aslo not normaly used as colours for cars buildings etc that way you stand out eveywhere.
If you really want to be safe ride a bright pink bike, with pink jacket and strides, pink helmet and gloves. But who the F---k wants to be that safe !!!!!!!!!
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so that makes the plastic rocket brigade matching leathers and bikes the safest on the road then:rolleyes::D
 
bowser said:
As for hi viz etc the very best thing to be wearing is ALL one colour and preferably the same colour as your bike, you then appear as one large contrasting lump against the background and standout against background clutter, best colours are those that do not normaly appear in nature and are aslo not normaly used as colours for cars buildings etc that way you stand out eveywhere.
If you really want to be safe ride a bright pink bike, with pink jacket and strides, pink helmet and gloves. But who the F---k wants to be that safe !!!!!!!!!
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But this would not apply for night driving, no?
JC
 
It will be interesting to see how motorcycle casualty rates compare once all cars have to display headights permanently on. My own feeling on this is that bikes will become more invisible in a 'sea of headlamps', no longer will they stand out like they do at the moment. I do hope I'm wrong.
 
fatal said:
It will be interesting to see how motorcycle casualty rates compare once all cars have to display headights permanently on. My own feeling on this is that bikes will become more invisible in a 'sea of headlamps', no longer will they stand out like they do at the moment. I do hope I'm wrong.
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Ah but they wont have to display headlights permanently on, "The European Commission (EC) has decided not to call for the use of daytime dipped-beam headlights by all vehicles in Europe.

The EC proposal to harmonise the use of daytime dipped-beam headlights in Europe has been abandoned.

Although the Commission still supports the view that daytime dipped-beam headlights could increase the safety of car drivers and reduce the number of car accidents and fatalities, it recognized that too little information is yet available about the impact of this measure on other road users."

However new vehicles and light vans will in the future have to be fitted with Dedicated Running Lights eg new Audis - diode emmitting lights. These give a different "lighting signature" - the new buzz phrase look out for something similar for bikes coming along.

A bit of light reading from MAG http://www.network.mag-uk.org/smidsy/How Close is Too Close.pdf
 
fatal said:
It will be interesting to see how motorcycle casualty rates compare once all cars have to display headights permanently on. My own feeling on this is that bikes will become more invisible in a 'sea of headlamps', no longer will they stand out like they do at the moment. I do hope I'm wrong.
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I am sure that there must already be some, as riding/driving lights are already compulsory in several countries in Europe. Its a lot more complicated than that though.

As I said in an earlier post, its NOT really about being seen, its more about judgement. I know that we have all heard the "I didnt see you" but in my experience it is just not true, in almost every case the driver or rider (we are not exempt) really really did see what was coming but just did not make the right decision, and where that is not the case it is normally that they just didn't look at all. In fact I would put large amounts of money on that being by far the biggest cause of ALL accidents !! When you go to report an accident its obvious when questioning someone when they say I did look but just didn't see the bike/car/pedestrian etc, if you ask what they did see, they are equally unable to say, the reason being lots of drivers just don't look at all. It all comes down to actually paying attention. And it is frightening how many don't.

I wont say I have seen all of these but I have seen the photos or video, Women steering with knees whilst doing hair and lippy, blokes reading paper on steering wheel at 60 on M1 whilst eating a bowl of cornflakes, woman knitting at 30 mph in stop start traffic on park lane, bloke playing backgammon on pc whilst driving in traffic on the embankment, guy in trany van on A1 Hendon way with a plate of full english breakfast eating with a knife and fork holding a mug of tea between his knees. And when you stop them, you get torrents of abuse about why you dont go and catch real criminals or whats wrong I was still concentrating!! some people are just to stupid to be breathing!!
 
I buy my reflective stuff from here.

http://www.icu-ucme.co.uk/

It is utterly amazing how many really, really intelligent people would not be seen dead (?!) in a reflective jacket!
One should drive as if no-one has seen you AND boost the effect by wearing a reflective jacket. What is wrong with that????? The only thing i can think of is that is very, very "uncool" and makes you look like a copper.

A reflective jacket has two parts - reflective stripes designed to relect in cars headlights - and a very flourescent yellow fabric to make one visible even during the daytime when there are no car headlights shining at it. The flourescence washes out over time and use and then the jacket should be replaced.

Blimey, what old fuddy duddy I am! But, personally, I have my eye drawn immediately to Hi_Viz clothing when I'm on the move. YMMV.
I also utterly agree that Hi-Viz clothing will not grant you Superman-like invulnerability.
 
beemerboy9 said:
I buy my reflective stuff from here.

http://www.icu-ucme.co.uk/

It is utterly amazing how many really, really intelligent people would not be seen dead (?!) in a reflective jacket!
One should drive as if no-one has seen you AND boost the effect by wearing a reflective jacket. What is wrong with that????? The only thing i can think of is that is very, very "uncool" and makes you look like a copper.

A reflective jacket has two parts - reflective stripes designed to relect in cars headlights - and a very flourescent yellow fabric to make one visible even during the daytime when there are no car headlights shining at it. The flourescence washes out over time and use and then the jacket should be replaced.

Blimey, what old fuddy duddy I am! But, personally, I have my eye drawn immediately to Hi_Viz clothing when I'm on the move. YMMV.
I also utterly agree that Hi-Viz clothing will not grant you Superman-like invulnerability.
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That will be me then, even when riding police bikes I always wore a H belt if I could get away with it, absoluty hated wearing a yellow jacket, would NEVER wear one off duty, partly because as you say they are so uncool, and partly because I honestly dont believe they do any good at all.

But thats the nice thing about the world eveyone is free to make up their own mind, I would never say anybody else shouldnt or comment if they do.

However if I am honest I think there is more than a little attitude of, yellow/reflective jackets being reminisint of slightly middle aged members of the BMF riding BMW's or Goldwings going for organized ride outs, and that counjours up a picture in the minds of lots of the motorcycling community, and having a negative conatation that they are not happy with and wouldnt want to be associated with. Intelligence has nothing to do with it you are a member of a group of peers who see nothing wrong with it, others no matter how intelligent would do what every was necessary to fit in their peer group and that fitting in will always outweigh any sense common or otherwise.


Now I am not making a comment for or against just making and observation.
 
So why DO police bikers, paramedic bikers, road workers, rail workers etc wear hi viz stuff. Is it all a big con?
Anyone can say "I've been riding for 70 years, wearing my black canvas jacket, and never had an accident". But you only need to be unlucky or distracted once. You can ride defensively, but ultimately we absolutely rely on other people seeing us. If you're passing a sideroad at 50 mph and the volvo pulls out, no amount of "defensive" driving will save your life.
In response to an earlier post; I met a guy a few years ago who had an artificial hip at the age of 25 because a woman had driven into the back of him while he was stopped at a junction.
Incidentally, the commonest reason ex-bikers give me for why they gave up, is that they go tired/scared of people pulling out on them.
Bottom line is, it is beyond doubt that you are (on average) more likely to be seen if you're wearing orange than if you're wearing black. It only takes a millisecond flash of orange out of the corner of volvo driver's eye to make him/her pause.
 
gasman said:
So why DO police bikers, paramedic bikers, road workers, rail workers etc wear hi viz stuff. Is it all a big con?
Anyone can say "I've been riding for 70 years, wearing my black canvas jacket, and never had an accident". But you only need to be unlucky or distracted once. You can ride defensively, but ultimately we absolutely rely on other people seeing us. If you're passing a sideroad at 50 mph and the volvo pulls out, no amount of "defensive" driving will save your life.
In response to an earlier post; I met a guy a few years ago who had an artificial hip at the age of 25 because a woman had driven into the back of him while he was stopped at a junction.
Incidentally, the commonest reason ex-bikers give me for why they gave up, is that they go tired/scared of people pulling out on them.
Bottom line is, it is beyond doubt that you are (on average) more likely to be seen if you're wearing orange than if you're wearing black. It only takes a millisecond flash of orange out of the corner of volvo driver's eye to make him/her pause.
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Thats easy to anwser, as I actualy spoke with the man who wrote the regulations. Regs were drafted for persons working ON roads to wear reflective clothing, this was due to numerous deaths and injuries when working on unlit or poorly lit roads. Road menders, road sweepers, bin men, lollipop ladies etc, Originally the clothing was just normal clothing for the job with reflective strips, police used to use white coats for those on point duty for instance, same as lolipop ladies used to wear, The police settled on yellow decided that it should be extended to traffic officers and then to motorcycle police, and now all police are issued yellow jackets (at least in the met anyway) the fire and ambulance service followed the lead of the police, and industry in general has just followed on. I beleive that yellow was chosen as it was easier to keep clean than white and at the time nobody else was using that colour and therefore it stood out as being police (an argument that no longer holds water). It is done now because it limits the liability of the employer, they have to make every effort to keep you safe in possibly dangerous situations and hi viz is one way to ensure safty, also if you are involved in an accident and you are not wearing it they absolve themselves of any liability.
The actual regulations only require a certain percentage of the garmet to be reflective it makes no mention of the colour of the garment, it could as easy be green blue or whatever..
 
Nippy Normans supply Touratech, Wunderlich, Desert Fox and many other makes of accessories.
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