Hilltop Group Buy
- Thread starter topcat2006
- Start date
Hi lawvar,
This group buy now full unless anyone drops out. I would suggest you join as for the annual £12 cost you get a lot of value for your money. You'd also be able to put your name down on the reserve list for this group buy.
Tom
This group buy now full unless anyone drops out. I would suggest you join as for the annual £12 cost you get a lot of value for your money. You'd also be able to put your name down on the reserve list for this group buy.
Tom
papasquelch
Registered user
For those who are thinking about a Hilltop remap, you may want to consider my recent experience before you decide. Having read glowing reports on a number of bike forums and this one in particular, I had my 2014 Yamaha XT1200z “remapped” by Geoff in June this year, just before a three week tour of Germany and Austria. It was difficult to assess any improvement on the ride home from Hilltop because it was in a torrential downpour and the motorway ride to Folkestone didn't provide much opportunity either. However as the holiday wore on I struggled to notice any meaningful change in the bike.
When I got back home I phoned Geoff and explained my disappointment with the “remap”, so he agreed to reverse it and refund me the cost (after dire warnings about how lean it was running before the remap). Since “unmapping” the bike I have noticed no discernible difference in the bike.
With hindsight, I should have heeded the warning signs (but I kept thinking, “how could all these bikers be wrong?”):
Geoff was reluctant to explain exactly how he remapped bikes and didn't commit to anything in writing.
The workshop was an untidy mess and didn't look like a professional tuning establishment.
During the three hours spent at Hilltop in June, Geoff probably spent around 30 – 40 minutes actually doing anything to the bike (he arrived late and spent ages chatting to other visitors or on the phone, visiting the MOT part of the garage next door etc.)
Geoff did just three WOT dyno runs (no part throttle runs).
He connected his dyno to the diagnostic plug under the bike seat (other tuners who can truly reflash the XT1200z say that they have to plug directly into the ECU sockets to read and edit the various flashed maps).
I received no invoice describing the service he had provided (and certainly no VAT invoice, despite Geoff's website stating that he is a VAT registered business).
I did however receive the rather optimistic before and after dyno prints from the three dyno runs.
The “unmapping” at Hilltop in July took two hours during which Geoff again did anything but work on the bike – he spent perhaps 20 minutes max actually doing anything with it. At no time did he ask whether he could adjust the mapping to address what I felt were the deficiencies in the remap. Just before processing the refund Geoff again tried scare mongering about how lean it was now running, with dire warnings about it burning valves, holing pistons etc etc. He even showed me a new version of my dyno charts adding an A/F graph which showed off-the-scale 22:1 all the way up to 4500rpm (which was odd because I don't think that a petrol internal combustion engine can run under load at over 22:1 and will seriously misfire at 16:1). I was then asked to state my acceptance, in front of the cctv cameras, that Hilltop accepted no responsibility if the bike went bang. I was also informed that there would be no record of my bike having been “remapped” at Hilltop. Geoff was then happy to let me ride off on the bike…
Recent discussions on this forum indicate that nobody is sure what Geoff actually does to remap a bike or how he achieves such substantial power increases. Other tuners who are able to reflash an XT1200z have said that all that can be done via the diagnostic plug is load a serial eprom image into the spare memory, which then acts like a minimal functionality Powercommander inside the ECU. It is then possible to overlay a crude shadow fuel map which will have very few fuelling points (say, every 1500rpm instead of every 200rpm in the original flash) because of the limited spare memory in the ECU. The ECU then interpolates between the multiple original flashed maps (which remain unchanged, of course) and the overlaid shadow fuel map.
The success of this will depend on how well the particular bike's ECU manages to interpolate and factor in the data from the various existing flashed fuel and ignition maps and those relating to the many sensors (throttle position, crank position, temperature, manifold air pressure, lambda etc.). It has the potential to richen the A/F ratio, but this will be by inconsistent amounts depending on how the ECU processes data received from the base maps and other sensors in order to calculate fuel injection pulse duration.
This is not really ECU remapping, but it is cheap, quick and easy to do (no remapping software licences required and no need to gain access to the ECU, just the fairly common diagnostic plugs). There is of course no risk of a manufacturer's software map update overwriting the shadow fuel map because it is in the spare memory outside the true ECU flashed maps. Similarly, dealers' diagnostic software won't identify anything because the original flashed maps have not been amended in any way (and the flash counter doesn't change, of course).
The complexity of modern ECUs means that remapping takes around six hours and should involve 30 – 50 dyno runs, although feedback from other Hilltop customers on this forum indicates that whatever Geoff does works well on BMWs. Perhaps whatever he does is just ineffective on the latest XT1200z.
When I got back home I phoned Geoff and explained my disappointment with the “remap”, so he agreed to reverse it and refund me the cost (after dire warnings about how lean it was running before the remap). Since “unmapping” the bike I have noticed no discernible difference in the bike.
With hindsight, I should have heeded the warning signs (but I kept thinking, “how could all these bikers be wrong?”):
Geoff was reluctant to explain exactly how he remapped bikes and didn't commit to anything in writing.
The workshop was an untidy mess and didn't look like a professional tuning establishment.
During the three hours spent at Hilltop in June, Geoff probably spent around 30 – 40 minutes actually doing anything to the bike (he arrived late and spent ages chatting to other visitors or on the phone, visiting the MOT part of the garage next door etc.)
Geoff did just three WOT dyno runs (no part throttle runs).
He connected his dyno to the diagnostic plug under the bike seat (other tuners who can truly reflash the XT1200z say that they have to plug directly into the ECU sockets to read and edit the various flashed maps).
I received no invoice describing the service he had provided (and certainly no VAT invoice, despite Geoff's website stating that he is a VAT registered business).
I did however receive the rather optimistic before and after dyno prints from the three dyno runs.
The “unmapping” at Hilltop in July took two hours during which Geoff again did anything but work on the bike – he spent perhaps 20 minutes max actually doing anything with it. At no time did he ask whether he could adjust the mapping to address what I felt were the deficiencies in the remap. Just before processing the refund Geoff again tried scare mongering about how lean it was now running, with dire warnings about it burning valves, holing pistons etc etc. He even showed me a new version of my dyno charts adding an A/F graph which showed off-the-scale 22:1 all the way up to 4500rpm (which was odd because I don't think that a petrol internal combustion engine can run under load at over 22:1 and will seriously misfire at 16:1). I was then asked to state my acceptance, in front of the cctv cameras, that Hilltop accepted no responsibility if the bike went bang. I was also informed that there would be no record of my bike having been “remapped” at Hilltop. Geoff was then happy to let me ride off on the bike…
Recent discussions on this forum indicate that nobody is sure what Geoff actually does to remap a bike or how he achieves such substantial power increases. Other tuners who are able to reflash an XT1200z have said that all that can be done via the diagnostic plug is load a serial eprom image into the spare memory, which then acts like a minimal functionality Powercommander inside the ECU. It is then possible to overlay a crude shadow fuel map which will have very few fuelling points (say, every 1500rpm instead of every 200rpm in the original flash) because of the limited spare memory in the ECU. The ECU then interpolates between the multiple original flashed maps (which remain unchanged, of course) and the overlaid shadow fuel map.
The success of this will depend on how well the particular bike's ECU manages to interpolate and factor in the data from the various existing flashed fuel and ignition maps and those relating to the many sensors (throttle position, crank position, temperature, manifold air pressure, lambda etc.). It has the potential to richen the A/F ratio, but this will be by inconsistent amounts depending on how the ECU processes data received from the base maps and other sensors in order to calculate fuel injection pulse duration.
This is not really ECU remapping, but it is cheap, quick and easy to do (no remapping software licences required and no need to gain access to the ECU, just the fairly common diagnostic plugs). There is of course no risk of a manufacturer's software map update overwriting the shadow fuel map because it is in the spare memory outside the true ECU flashed maps. Similarly, dealers' diagnostic software won't identify anything because the original flashed maps have not been amended in any way (and the flash counter doesn't change, of course).
The complexity of modern ECUs means that remapping takes around six hours and should involve 30 – 50 dyno runs, although feedback from other Hilltop customers on this forum indicates that whatever Geoff does works well on BMWs. Perhaps whatever he does is just ineffective on the latest XT1200z.
Just a couple of points. Geoff doesn't own the business, so he won't be VAT registered, but I'm sure the business is.
Yes, it is an old fashioned workshop, & yes, he can talk the hind leg off a donkey, but when I last called in, for a cuppa & a chat, there were 4 brand new Superstock racers, from a well know English race team ( a winning one, at that) so they must be happy with the results. As you say, perhaps it doesn't suit the Yamaha.
Deleted account 200502001
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For those getting their GS's done at Hilltop, once done remember when turning ignition on to let it finish cycling through its checks before starting the engine. Apparently the bike needs to find the remap during this cycle. If you don't then the remap might not be found and will only run as before the remap (according to Geof).
I saw a significant difference to my GS after Hilltop. Didn't turn it into a rocket but it does ride much smoother and has bags more oomph. I also saw race team bikes in for work so I suspect he really does know what he is doing. Wasn't like a clinical BMW workshop but more like a normal independent busy workshop.
He does need biscuits though.
kev
He does need biscuits though.
kev
neoviper
Registered user
i try so hard not to comment on post but in this case i can't help my self
this customer had a increase of 6 bhp but the fueling was bang on after the work in my non surgical work shop ,as it is a working workshop ,i apologize for not having it tidy for you and your wife on your visit:
the fact that it got all around germany shows i did my job ,but i do offer a full money back if your not happy with my work ,as your wife did most of the talking was she not happy with the work ?:
as for the other comments look at the bottom of the website http://hilltopmotorcycles.co.uk/ c##k
but hay ho the other 99.9% customers are more than welcome to pop in and have a cuppa
have fun and ride safe
geoff
ps .if you know of any ladies that would like to go over the workshop with a duster send your cv with a pic to me xx
this customer had a increase of 6 bhp but the fueling was bang on after the work in my non surgical work shop ,as it is a working workshop ,i apologize for not having it tidy for you and your wife on your visit:
the fact that it got all around germany shows i did my job ,but i do offer a full money back if your not happy with my work ,as your wife did most of the talking was she not happy with the work ?:
as for the other comments look at the bottom of the website http://hilltopmotorcycles.co.uk/ c##k
but hay ho the other 99.9% customers are more than welcome to pop in and have a cuppa
have fun and ride safe
geoff
ps .if you know of any ladies that would like to go over the workshop with a duster send your cv with a pic to me xx
your reply neoviper says a lot about your professionalism its certainly put me off
neoviper
Registered user
I'm sorry if you think my replies being unprofessional but I do take it very personally ,when I see this sort of thing thankfully it is extremely rare, so any insults I do take personally I have remapped over 600 BMW boxer engines I'm sorry that you don't think that I'm professional in my reply but I think it's just the reply you would expect from somebody that has been insulted, I treat every customer that comes through my door like a friend, I spend a lot of my time giving advice and information to people the fact of the matter is I don't run business that is hello sir take a seat, I encourage hands on approach to the work that I do and on many occasions i invite people into the dyno room I could have a reception area with maybe a coffee table but this does not reflect my background and My background is I have been riding bikes and racing bikes and looking after race teams for 35 years I just wonder how you would've responded to such insults and fabrication I treat every bike that I work on as it is my own I spent two years writing the firmware that I use today and okay if you don't like the way i responded to the insults then don't come to me that is entirely your choice but I'm not going sit and be insulted
And also I spend hours talking to people exactly what I'm doing and how I'm doing it admittedly I do not reveal the codes in which i use but I certainly try my best to explain things in a way that my customers would understand people don't come to me for my etiquette they come for the work that I do and the pride I take in my work
And also I spend hours talking to people exactly what I'm doing and how I'm doing it admittedly I do not reveal the codes in which i use but I certainly try my best to explain things in a way that my customers would understand people don't come to me for my etiquette they come for the work that I do and the pride I take in my work
Good on you Geoff, go get them!!
In the immortal words of Tom Skerrit from the famous 80's movie........................"I'll fly with you Maverick....."
If that makes any sense.
neoviper
Registered user
yes and thanks mate
Your moniker says a lot about you................
It's certainly put me off.
http://www.ukgser.com/forums/showth...-of-a-quot-Triple-Black-quot?highlight=triple
Al
Deleted account 200502001
Registered user
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Mines black, grey and aluminium. Does that make it a triple?
He didn't insult you he just gave his version of his experience he had dealing with you and your business .I have seen many comments on here and other forums where they have no issues with your service but don't notice any difference in performance of the bike
Thing is - of all the people who have had a trip to Geoff - I've not heard of anyone who has claimed:
"Holy Fcuk! The consumption is way up, and there is a stink of fuel!"
"The bike runs worse than when I took it in there!"
I know that the bike I have, with the high performance exhaust and air filter - was running ultra-lean and almost unridable. Thought about PC5, FRK Module, Rexer - and decided on Hilltop. Bike runs tip-top now, with no concerns about fuel consumption, loose connections or subsequent over-writes of the mapping...............
If I get time, I'll pop along to another operator for a dyno run - just for fun
Al
"Holy Fcuk! The consumption is way up, and there is a stink of fuel!"
"The bike runs worse than when I took it in there!"
I know that the bike I have, with the high performance exhaust and air filter - was running ultra-lean and almost unridable. Thought about PC5, FRK Module, Rexer - and decided on Hilltop. Bike runs tip-top now, with no concerns about fuel consumption, loose connections or subsequent over-writes of the mapping...............
If I get time, I'll pop along to another operator for a dyno run - just for fun
Al
Had mine remapped by Geoff a few months ago
I for one am a very satisfied customer - the 'snatch' at 3000rpm went away, the vibration through the bars is still much improved, & it still pulls like a train right through the rev range.
Mines a 2010 twin cam GSA by the way ( 30th Anniversary if I wanted to namedrop
)
Thanks Geoff,
I remain convinced .........now what can you do for my K1200S ??
I for one am a very satisfied customer - the 'snatch' at 3000rpm went away, the vibration through the bars is still much improved, & it still pulls like a train right through the rev range.
Mines a 2010 twin cam GSA by the way ( 30th Anniversary if I wanted to namedrop
)Thanks Geoff,
I remain convinced .........now what can you do for my K1200S ??
neoviper
Registered user
Had mine remapped by Geoff a few months ago
I for one am a very satisfied customer - the 'snatch' at 3000rpm went away, the vibration through the bars is still much improved, & it still pulls like a train right through the rev range.
Mines a 2010 twin cam GSA by the way ( 30th Anniversary if I wanted to namedrop
Thanks Geoff,
I remain convinced .........now what can you do for my K1200S ??
give me a ring I'm back in on the 11th
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