Hilltop Motorcycles fact or fiction

[MalcGSA]

Just thought i would put up a post about my trip to Hilltop Motorcycles to have my 2013 GSA mapped.

A little bit of background about me, I was the proud owner of GAS Motorcycles in Haverhill Suffolk until a couple of years ago. We had the exact same Dyno that is used at Hilltop, I am fully versed in the workings of the hardware and the software that operates the dyno & also know how to tweak the results to show bigger gains than are actually true. I would add that whilst it is possible to change the readings it would only be by a max of 4-5 bhp.

I arrived at Hilltop on Wednesday bright and early (turns out a bit too early) and was greeted by a couple of cheerful mechanics from the garage next door. they filled me with tea & told me stories of the many happy customers that had been before me.
Geoff arrived and greeted me then disappeared into the small room for a while, in this time his assistant (whose name I didn't get) sorted out getting my bike in and ready for Geoff to set to work on.

When Geoff put the bike on the dyno, all was very familiar, the strapping in of the bike, the correct adjustment for the rear wheel to sit correctly on the drum & then the whine of the fans kicking in. There is a window in the side of the dyno room that allows full observation of what is going on and I can guarantee that the first run was a straight and true power and fuelling run.
I was presented with the chart and it was fully explained about the fuelling and the power curves etc, Geoff was totally unaware at this point that I was fully conversant in the workings of the dyno and this model in particular. Geoff set to and installed his mapping onto my ECU ready for a second run. Whilst this was happening I made Geoff aware of the fact that I was fully conversant with the kit and knew all the little tweaks you can do to make the results look favourable, I would also add that the easiest things to do would be during the set up and during the first run. I watched very carefully to ensure none of the measures were taken.
After telling Geoff of my past and my time spent with Phil Seton of Seton Tuning, I was invited to enter the dyno room for the second run to observe up close everything that was going on.
There was no trickery, there is no mystical stuff going on, the software Geoff uses to re-map the ecu is completely separate from the dyno software, the graphs are a true representation of the bikes output and fuelling curve.
The new map was written to the ecu, a second run was made, the software then made some tweaks and the final run was completed.
The result was a bike that lost a lot of its vibration, it now pulls cleanly and stronger in all the gears and the fuelling is spot on as per the readout. there is an increase in bhp and torque but this is not really what its all about. The correct fuelling means the engine is working at its optimum and is not about to start dropping valves etc.

So I would say to anyone thinking of having their bike mapped, do it and you will experience a definite change for the better and have peace of mind that the engine is fuelling correctly, you may also find your grinning just a little more.
For all you out there that think theres some trickery going on and that the reading are somehow being falsified, I can personally vouch for Geoff and say his reading from the dyno are accurate and true. He has a cracking bit of software and is a very knowledgeable man.

I had never met Geoff before Wednesday, I got no discount for putting up this post. I have posted this simply because when a man works hard to build his business the worst thing is for people with little or no knowledge of the facts dismiss the good work Geoff is doing as being corrupt and the figures falsified.
I am more than happy with the improvement to my GSA and will most likely be making the trip back up on my S1000RR to have the same work carried out.

Malc

 

[Roadrash Rider]

FairPlay, well said, I know jack shit about this black art but my 13 plate GSA has been so smooth and pulling so much better since Geoff sorted her back in March.
Bring on the nay sayers!


Sent using Tapatalk

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Since you're knowledgeable and were there while he made changes, give us the rundown on how the maps were altered. For example, which RPMs and throttle angles did he add and remove fuel at, and how much; which load and RPMs got spark advance changes, and how much; did they adjust dwell time as they altered spark timing; did he alter the closed loop area; and how many TPS angles did he test?

Also, is his an inertial dyno or does it also have a programmable static load? Lastly, do you have some plots you could share that include measured AFR?

 

[oldnfat]

Since you're knowledgeable and were there while he made changes, give us the rundown on how the maps were altered. For example, which RPMs and throttle angles did he add and remove fuel at, and how much; which load and RPMs got spark advance changes, and how much; did they adjust dwell time as they altered spark timing; did he alter the closed loop area; and how many TPS angles did he test?

Also, is his an inertial dyno or does it also have a programmable static load? Lastly, do you have some plots you could share that include measured AFR?

Frankly the only post that matters here is the one from Roadcraft. Having had my 13 GSA mapped I am a very happy customer. I don't give a feck about all the shit above (no offence meant). All I know is my bike is so much better post remap...in fact I would go as far as to say that having owned a GSA LC that it takes the motor much closer to that in responsiveness and smoothness.

In other words the best £350 I have spent on a bike by far...as I said... happy customer.

 

[Popell]

I think that might be what you pay your money to get( if you're lucky)

I appreciate that you are in the States but Hilltop do a mail in service.

I must admit that I struggled with the concept of significant power gains showing merely as 'smoother', 'less snatchy' etc

I find some additional confidence in the corroboration for a post such as Malcgsa's

I hope to be able to afford to get it done sometime (a struggle) and be able to experience the change myself

 

[MalcGSA]

Since you're knowledgeable and were there while he made changes, give us the rundown on how the maps were altered. For example, which RPMs and throttle angles did he add and remove fuel at, and how much; which load and RPMs got spark advance changes, and how much; did they adjust dwell time as they altered spark timing; did he alter the closed loop area; and how many TPS angles did he test?

Also, is his an inertial dyno or does it also have a programmable static load? Lastly, do you have some plots you could share that include measured AFR?

Roger

At no point did I say that I was an expert tuner of motorcycles, I do however have full knowledge of how the dyno operates and how the dyno software is used.
If I was a top tuner then I would probably still have my bike shop and I would be encouraging you all to travel to Haverhill to have your bikes re-mapped.
The fuelling of the bike is where Geoff's programme comes in and why we pay him the money we do.

Yes I have charts but that not what this is about, my post is to verify that when the power and fuelling runs are carried out, there is nothing underhanded going on with displaying the results.
I know if you go to another dyno you may get a different reading regarding power output but the fuel curve should always show a constant.

I will at some point get the bike over to Seton tuning to have the bike run up on Phil's dyno, this should give a pretty consistent result as the two machines are almost identical.

 

[roamer]

K

Since you're knowledgeable and were there while he made changes, give us the rundown on how the maps were altered. For example, which RPMs and throttle angles did he add and remove fuel at, and how much; which load and RPMs got spark advance changes, and how much; did they adjust dwell time as they altered spark timing; did he alter the closed loop area; and how many TPS angles did he test?

Also, is his an inertial dyno or does it also have a programmable static load? Lastly, do you have some plots you could share that include measured AFR?

The programming for the parameters is in the firmware that is done after the initial run,
This is where the car derived dynamic management system differs,
The engine brakes and suspension are all intergrated sharing data on the network,
The main difference is the values are not one base figure at any point,
There are run in and offset values around the base values this is the self adjusting element
Which adapts for component ageing and wear ,such as actuators , lambda sensors,
The cylinder balance and smooth running control, which adjusts ignition and fuel ,
Is made up of multiple bit strings, not a fixed point value with a step change,
For instance, the throttle command on the lc gs which is fly by wire,
is sent as a raw voltage value to engine Ecu ,
The brake ecu ( mother) decides whether the input is an appropriate command,
This is based on mode selected and wheel speeds engine calculated load ambient temperature, longitudinal forces And incline,
The processed command happens in milliseconds , the priority is done through bit arbitration on the can network,
This is current automotive technology,
I work with it daily, have no idea how to program it or do what Geoff does, he does have print offs of bit strings of his own bike,
Like Malc I stood there with an understanding of what can be done ,
And saw an honest result whilst stood watching the final tweaking of the dynamic program,
Out of interest I got that much of a torque gain , I accidentally pulled away in second gear without slipping the clutch,
Roamer

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Roger

At no point did I say that I was an expert tuner of motorcycles, I do however have full knowledge of how the dyno operates and how the dyno software is used.
If I was a top tuner then I would probably still have my bike shop and I would be encouraging you all to travel to Haverhill to have your bikes re-mapped.
The fuelling of the bike is where Geoff's programme comes in and why we pay him the money we do.

Yes I have charts but that not what this is about, my post is to verify that when the power and fuelling runs are carried out, there is nothing underhanded going on with displaying the results.
I know if you go to another dyno you may get a different reading regarding power output but the fuel curve should always show a constant.

I will at some point get the bike over to Seton tuning to have the bike run up on Phil's dyno, this should give a pretty consistent result as the two machines are almost identical.

MalcGSA, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, nor, after reading your results, did I suspect any mischief on anyone's part. I am interested in what the dyno tuner is able to do to the final AFR's and Spark Advance of the bike since O2 sensors limit how much the AFR can be changed, and Knock Sensors can also correct spark advance errors/changes.

My reason for wanting to see the plots is to look at the recorded AFR. Often the recorded AFR is very lean for the first part of a WOT dyno pull. I'd like to see how yours compares.

My reason for asking how many throttle positions (other that WOT) were used, is to gauge how comprehensive the tuning is. A lot of tuners adjust WOT timing and do show a boost in HP and Torque. What I'm interested in is the change in roll-on torque at part throttle.

I asked about the dwell because there is a Motronic chip tuner who is changing spark advance without also adjusting dwell and ending up with really short dwell times.

I asked about what type of Dyno because pure inertial dynos without the ability to add a fixed load can be limited.

I asked about the Closed Loop area because if they reduced it, they may be able to get richer AFRs but at the expense of incomplete Long Term Trim calculation.

One more question if you don't mind, can you remember what gear they used when they did the dyno testing?

I am a sceptic by nature but my questions are honest. I was hoping that your familiarity with the tuning process might shed some light on this topic.

 

[RedRick Esq.]

MalcGSA, I'm not trying to put you on the spot, nor, after reading your results, did I suspect any mischief on anyone's part. I am interested in what the dyno tuner is able to do to the final AFR's and Spark Advance of the bike since O2 sensors limit how much the AFR can be changed, and Knock Sensors can also correct spark advance errors/changes.

My reason for wanting to see the plots is to look at the recorded AFR. Often the recorded AFR is very lean for the first part of a WOT dyno pull. I'd like to see how yours compares.

My reason for asking how many throttle positions (other that WOT) were used, is to gauge how comprehensive the tuning is. A lot of tuners adjust WOT timing and do show a boost in HP and Torque. What I'm interested in is the change in roll-on torque at part throttle.

I asked about the dwell because there is a Motronic chip tuner who is changing spark advance without also adjusting dwell and ending up with really short dwell times.

I asked about what type of Dyno because pure inertial dynos without the ability to add a fixed load can be limited.

I asked about the Closed Loop area because if they reduced it, they may be able to get richer AFRs but at the expense of incomplete Long Term Trim calculation.

One more question if you don't mind, can you remember what gear they used when they did the dyno testing?

I am a sceptic by nature but my questions are honest. I was hoping that your familiarity with the tuning process might shed some light on this topic.

I watched geoff do mine and he thrashes it through all the gears into top and then max's it !
He does nothing with advance spark he re maps the ECU to get optimum fueling across the board at all temps and altitudes !

The world is flat !

 

[timeandtide]

Just thought i would put up a post about my trip to Hilltop Motorcycles to have my 2013 GSA mapped.

A little bit of background about me, I was the proud owner of GAS Motorcycles in Haverhill Suffolk until a couple of years ago. We had the exact same Dyno that is used at Hilltop, I am fully versed in the workings of the hardware and the software that operates the dyno & also know how to tweak the results to show bigger gains than are actually true. I would add that whilst it is possible to change the readings it would only be by a max of 4-5 bhp.

I arrived at Hilltop on Wednesday bright and early (turns out a bit too early) and was greeted by a couple of cheerful mechanics from the garage next door. they filled me with tea & told me stories of the many happy customers that had been before me.
Geoff arrived and greeted me then disappeared into the small room for a while, in this time his assistant (whose name I didn't get) sorted out getting my bike in and ready for Geoff to set to work on.

When Geoff put the bike on the dyno, all was very familiar, the strapping in of the bike, the correct adjustment for the rear wheel to sit correctly on the drum & then the whine of the fans kicking in. There is a window in the side of the dyno room that allows full observation of what is going on and I can guarantee that the first run was a straight and true power and fuelling run.
I was presented with the chart and it was fully explained about the fuelling and the power curves etc, Geoff was totally unaware at this point that I was fully conversant in the workings of the dyno and this model in particular. Geoff set to and installed his mapping onto my ECU ready for a second run. Whilst this was happening I made Geoff aware of the fact that I was fully conversant with the kit and knew all the little tweaks you can do to make the results look favourable, I would also add that the easiest things to do would be during the set up and during the first run. I watched very carefully to ensure none of the measures were taken.
After telling Geoff of my past and my time spent with Phil Seton of Seton Tuning, I was invited to enter the dyno room for the second run to observe up close everything that was going on.
There was no trickery, there is no mystical stuff going on, the software Geoff uses to re-map the ecu is completely separate from the dyno software, the graphs are a true representation of the bikes output and fuelling curve.
The new map was written to the ecu, a second run was made, the software then made some tweaks and the final run was completed.
The result was a bike that lost a lot of its vibration, it now pulls cleanly and stronger in all the gears and the fuelling is spot on as per the readout. there is an increase in bhp and torque but this is not really what its all about. The correct fuelling means the engine is working at its optimum and is not about to start dropping valves etc.

So I would say to anyone thinking of having their bike mapped, do it and you will experience a definite change for the better and have peace of mind that the engine is fuelling correctly, you may also find your grinning just a little more.
For all you out there that think theres some trickery going on and that the reading are somehow being falsified, I can personally vouch for Geoff and say his reading from the dyno are accurate and true. He has a cracking bit of software and is a very knowledgeable man.

I had never met Geoff before Wednesday, I got no discount for putting up this post. I have posted this simply because when a man works hard to build his business the worst thing is for people with little or no knowledge of the facts dismiss the good work Geoff is doing as being corrupt and the figures falsified.
I am more than happy with the improvement to my GSA and will most likely be making the trip back up on my S1000RR to have the same work carried out.

Malc

Although lacking your technical expertise that was exactly my experience.
I was more than happy and therefore took my 650 Terra for the same treatment.
Although only small overall gains it was so much smoother and as Geoff showed me at several points through the rev range there were far more substantial gains

 

[Deleted account 200502001]

I disagree with all of the above.

I think what actually happens is Geof simply puts a magic spell on you bike, nothing more and nothing less.

But so as not to give the game away he puts it onto an expensive looking machine and fucks about with it for a bit. When he thrashes it through all the gears he is actually ensuring you can't hear him speak the magic spell. Clever clever man

 

[APW]

I disagree with all of the above.

I think what actually happens is Geof simply puts a magic spell on you bike, nothing more and nothing less.

But so as not to give the game away he puts it onto an expensive looking machine and fucks about with it for a bit. When he thrashes it through all the gears he is actually ensuring you can't hear him speak the magic spell. Clever clever man

BING!
and the light comes on

What a fool am I Geoff asked me when I had mine done do I want to stand in the room while my bike was on the Dyno and watch him work his magic and I said no.....NO!
I could have heard the words

looking elsewhere on this forum and reading the problems and hassle others appear to be having with there PCVs and trying to set them up wanting local dyno tuners etc on top of the cost of a PCV

give me a Hilltop remap any day.
in......out done! no messing about sorted!

Awsome!

just wish I had heard the magic words now I will be forever kicking myself



Andy

 

[RedRick Esq.]

Geoff tried to explain to me something about power commander set up and barometric pressure

some thing about once it is set it is set so if you for example set it at sea level and then ride high into the mountains it will not adjust accordingly whereas his maps will !

 

[Delboy777]

A properly fitted PC will be every bit as good as anything else. Cost me £214 from Germany for a PCV. Set up on a proper Dynojet Dyno will cost me £180 so not much in the way of a difference between the two and if I want I can recoup most of the cost of the PC if I ever sell it. Hilltop and that's your dosh gone, never to be returned.

 

[Beemerman59]

A properly fitted PC will be every bit as good as anything else. Cost me £214 from Germany for a PCV. Set up on a proper Dynojet Dyno will cost me £180 so not much in the way of a difference between the two and if I want I can recoup most of the cost of the PC if I ever sell it. Hilltop and that's your dosh gone, never to be returned.

That's all correct but a remap in my opinion is the most elegant solution, undetectable and there's no hardware or connectors to go wrong as some have found out with PC's, myself included. It will also automatically adjust if you change headers, cans etc and keep the ideal fuelling whatever the circumstances.

 

[Micky]

Had my likkle XCountry remapped by Geoff (it's a keeper) documented elsewhere

All I know is that it will trickle along in a built up area in a higher gear than ever before, and will pull like a steam train from virtually zero revs to max.

Geoff's skulduggery and sorcery certainly worked on the little critter

 

[RedRick Esq.]

A properly fitted PC will be every bit as good as anything else. Cost me £214 from Germany for a PCV. Set up on a proper Dynojet Dyno will cost me £180 so not much in the way of a difference between the two and if I want I can recoup most of the cost of the PC if I ever sell it. Hilltop and that's your dosh gone, never to be returned.

Yes you can re coup your money but how will it perform if you take it into the Alps having had it set up in a remote area near sea level ?

 

[Popell]

Visited Squires today, and with the recent question re informing insurance companies about such modification, I was amused to see a load of Power Commander stickers plastered all over a shitter of an old Yamaha.
Hope he never crashes or has informed his ins co!

 

[Delboy777]

Yes you can re coup your money but how will it perform if you take it into the Alps having had it set up in a remote area near sea level ?

Since i will never be anywhere near the Alps the question is irrelevant AFAIC. My point is im having my bike done on a dyno and therefore will be better suited than some generic map that would be flashed to the ecu if i sent it down to Hilltop. Time and cost considerations make the PCV a no brainer for me. If fitted properly and the plugs protected from water ingress there will be no problems with it. Thats me talking from past experience as ive had them fitted to other bikes.

 

[sagalout]

Yes you can re coup your money but how will it perform if you take it into the Alps having had it set up in a remote area near sea level ?

From what I understand the O2 sensor isn't used for that anyway, or for anything above about 4K rpm.