Hilltop Motorcycles fact or fiction

[cammy5477]

Not a subscriber at mo, hopefully that will be changing soon. Would've been up for the trip as well but have arranged to go into Edinburgh on the 12th for birthday beers! Have to hook up when you're back and get your opinions on the remap. You doing it in one day or overnighting anywhere?

I'm going to leave about 6.30....my appointment is at 1 so as long as I'm there for then.
A couple of hours with Geoff then heading back up the round on hopefully a near as perfectly fueled GSA
I'll let you know my findings ��

 

[filbe]

I was there last month with my 2014 GSA LC. After the remapping I noticed less vibration, better mid-range and more power, and I think, better fuel consumption.
Geoff is a genuine guy with no agenda, and his software works!

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Roger, having read your thread on another site from a couple of years ago it appears modifications are adapted out from boosterplugs etc, do you think the Hilltop tune would be adapted out in time? It seems after lots and lots of reading that only Lambda shift devices won't get adapted out, or is my assumption wrong? I've been known to be right occasionally in the past!

Parts of it might be adapted out and parts might not be.

The BMSK used in the R1200s has two adaptive capabilities. The knock sensors can adjust timing but I have never measured that so can't comment on changes to timing. I would expect as long as the knock sensors don't pick up any pinging, Hilltop changes would stay in effect permanently.

BMSK uses two lambda sensors to constantly bring fueling back to lambda=1, which is 14.7:1. Cruise fueling up to very high speeds are always at that AFR with connected O2 sensors, unless they are disabled as with the PC V. When you disconnect the O2 sensors, you give up other BMSK functions.

I didn't start this thread, with its edgy title, Fact or Fiction?. I assume that Hilltop are reputable and earnest. What I've asked a few times is simply, what changes do they make? It seems a reasonable question. If Hilltop doesn't explain that to its customers, if it were me, I'd attach some instruments and go for a ride and see for myself.

The answer I expected to get was that they:
--fine tune timing, to reduce the margins required of production bikes but adding to top end power.
--leave the O2 sensors connected to maintain emmissions and economy, but alter the timing so that peak combustion pressures are at the optimal time
--fine tune fueling at large throttle angles for maximum power
--enrich the throttle position acceleration table
--etc., etc.

 

[Mr Bean]

Tell me something, why would Geoff publish anything?

After all there are many - very many satisfied customers of Geoff to suggest his work is good.

If I had a successful recipe I'd be buggered if I would share it with all and sundry - particularly to a competitor/a competitor developer

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

Parts of it might be adapted out and parts might not be.

The BMSK used in the R1200s has two adaptive capabilities. The knock sensors can adjust timing but I have never measured that so can't comment on changes to timing. I would expect as long as the knock sensors don't pick up any pinging, Hilltop changes would stay in effect permanently.

BMSK uses two lambda sensors to constantly bring fueling back to lambda=1, which is 14.7:1. Cruise fueling up to very high speeds are always at that AFR with connected O2 sensors, unless they are disabled as with the PC V. When you disconnect the O2 sensors, you give up other BMSK functions.

I didn't start this thread, with its edgy title, Fact or Fiction?. I assume that Hilltop are reputable and earnest. What I've asked a few times is simply, what changes do they make? It seems a reasonable question. If Hilltop doesn't explain that to its customers, if it were me, I'd attach some instruments and go for a ride and see for myself.

The answer I expected to get was that they:
--fine tune timing, to reduce the margins required of production bikes but adding to top end power.
--leave the O2 sensors connected to maintain emmissions and economy, but alter the timing so that peak combustion pressures are at the optimal time
--fine tune fueling at large throttle angles for maximum power
--enrich the throttle position acceleration table
--etc., etc.

Are you the same guy on Advrider who was asking similar questions?

Whatever, why not, as I suggested to him, phone or email Hilltop directly. Your understanding of these things is clearly way above most of us in here. You could then disseminate your findings to us all.

Sadly the guy on Advrider never did it. He just seemed happy to snipe from the sidelines.

Andrés

 

[Blackal]

Are you the same guy on Advrider who was asking similar questions?

Whatever, why not, as I suggested to him, phone or email Hilltop directly. Your understanding of these things is clearly way above most of us in here. You could then disseminate your findings to us all.

Sadly the guy on Advrider never did it. He just seemed happy to snipe from the sidelines.

Andrés

Very good advice, Andres.

Roger - e-mail Geoff at Hilltop directly, then you will get technical answers rather than anecdotes. I suspect, by the style of your posts - that you won't, however.

Al

 

[Grim Reaper]

If the bike came out of the factory with an optimised ECU map then the tuners would have nothing to do. However the manufacturers have to meet all sorts of regulations that offer no benefit to the buying public so engine are strangulated. They also have to accommodate poor fuels so err on the safe side.

Putting the ECU map back to where the designers intended puts back that lost power. It's not magic.

My MPG, measured brim to brim on tank fills, agrees with the trip computer to less than 0.5mpg. The speedo reads fast when compared to Sat Nav. Ive not made serious not of how much but its around 4 to 5 mph fast at 70.

I keep seeing this quote about having to accommodate poor quality fuels, but I keep thinking that surely they would err on the rich side rather than the lean side to be safe?
If by poor quality fuel you meant that it had a higher octane rating then yes, lean off the mixture, but less octane generally means more knock.

I have the AF-Xied's fitted to my 2015 GSA from about 20 miles in, set to 8 and I've done about 3000 miles on it so far, averaging 50mpg over that distance as I've not reset the mpg counter yet.

 

[MalcGSA]

Hilltop Motorcycles Fact not Fiction

Wow

9 pages, 146 replies and over 6500 views

Never thought this would be so hotly discussed. I only started this post to give people assurance that the measuring tool used in the process is being operated correctly and giving out correct readings for that machine
Geoff is not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes by deliberately giving a low reading or by creating an artificially high one.
As I said in my first post I have no affiliation with Geoff or Hilltop Motorcycles & until my visit there I had never set foot on the premises. I would say to all those that require more technical information about how the fuelling is changed, email the man direct and ask him [email protected] but I know if it was my business I would be telling you nothing

I still remain a happy customer.

 

[brut33]

I've no interest in having by bike improved at Hilltop. But the landslide of Yea's v Nay's is evidence enough that the process works.
Furthermore, a company such as this wouldn't leave itself open to the wrath of Trading Standards by fraudulently manipulating its dyno readings for financial gain.

 

[Beemerman59]

I'm also surprised there's such debate but there's only a couple of people who keep stirring it up as a conspiracy theory. I'm two years since my remap on my '08 and still very happy, no problems, no drama's - just an engine working perfectly for me. I completely believe the pre-map figures for mine which was 89bhp. BMW spec's the output as 105bhp but that's at the crank. Assuming a loss of 15% for the drivetrain that equates to what - 89.25bhp? After the remap the output at the rear wheel was 109bhp. I don't care a stuff about that figure, but from a rider's perspective, the difference was chalk and cheese so I'll take it. I know my bike better than anyone else, I rode it up without the map and rode it back with it. 120 miles each way. I felt the difference. If Geoff is making good money from the remaps then good for him - why the hell not and there's no reason whatsoever he should share what he does on an open internet forum for goodness sake. There's so many "experts" on this forum and it's only their own ego's that makes them question what they can't understand. I can't understand it either, but I don't care. A Hilltop remap and Wilburs suspension are the two best things I've done to my bike in 6 years.

 

[brut33]

After the remap the output at the rear wheel was 109bhp.

Impressive!!. I'm beginning to warm up to this Hilltop makeover treatment.

 

[Beemerman59]

Impressive!!. I'm beginning to warm up to this Hilltop makeover treatment.

It's the ride afterwards that's impressive not the statistics. All I know is my bike doesn't stall anymore from 3rd to 2nd, I don't have to ride with my fingers on the clutch waiting for a stutter at low revs, has a linear power curve and goes like I want it to. So far that advancement to my biking enjoyment has cost me less than 50p a day and that's reducing with every passing ride. BMW couldn't fix any of those issues because they're stuck with the emissions regs.

 

[MWH]

I'm not a yay or nay person on Hilltop or any other method of tuning. One thing I would like to know is what has been done to my bike, ie ignition timing altered, injector timing altered etc. Not the precise figures, just what has been done as I like to know these things, especially if I've shelled out a few hundred pounds.

From this thread and others it appears PC's just chuck more fuel in, IAT's try to fool the bike into thinking its colder, Lambda shift devices tell it there is a different oxygen level so we know what is going on with these devices. With ECU remapping unless you're told you don't know whats happening. Back in the old days of mucking around with old Fords the only tuning was to put optronic point replacement, different cam/exhaust/air filter and maybe a gas flow. All of these could be visually seen so you knew it had been done as they were physical entities.

i personally would like a Hilltop remap as there seem to be lots of happy customers and it is a neater "install" as there is nothing to install and the price is comparable to Lambda shift devices.

I had my 07 GSa dyno'd and it was 94hp with a very squigly AFR line. My wifes 1200 Moto Guzzi was dyno'd at the same time. 79hp and a dead straight fuelling line. Hers was averaging near 60mpg and its throttle response was immediate and enough to pull away from my GSA on roll on's so it appears its not all about top end hp readings on the road,on the track maybe.

I shall be cursing the fact I'm not going on Thursday with Cammy and look forward to his verdict. (I ran it by the wife, she furrowed her brow so I'm assuming that meant no lol)

 

[Sgt Bilco]

It's the ride afterwards that's impressive not the statistics. .

I think that's the whole point and sums it up for me. I use a PC111 which is great but would probably Hilltop next time for pure simplicity. People can snipe away all they like and try and baffle us ordinary foo with loads of graphs and bullshit but at the end of the day, Geoff has many happy customers and the remap works. I don't think anyone really gives a rats arse about the BHP gain in reality because it means nothing in the real world. The fact the bikes pulls and feels better is all that matters.

We have had 2 really long threads on this with the same people refusing to accept that it works. I don't know about anyone else but maybe it's time to either close the thread or just don't comment on how your bike is as the doubters will just keep coming back with more and mare complex and spurious facts to suit their own opinions.

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

...................... I don't think anyone really gives a rats arse about the BHP gain in reality because it means nothing in the real world. The fact the bikes pulls and feels better is all that matters.

In one (oh, and doesn't run so lean)

We have had 2 really long threads on this with the same people refusing to accept that it works. I don't know about anyone else but maybe it's time to either close the thread or just don't comment on how your bike is as the doubters will just keep coming back with more and mare complex and spurious facts to suit their own opinions.

I'm in

Andres

 

[Lord Snooty]

I'm also surprised there's such debate but there's only a couple of people who keep stirring it up as a conspiracy theory. I'm two years since my remap on my '08 and still very happy, no problems, no drama's - just an engine working perfectly for me. I completely believe the pre-map figures for mine which was 89bhp. BMW spec's the output as 105bhp but that's at the crank. Assuming a loss of 15% for the drivetrain that equates to what - 89.25bhp? After the remap the output at the rear wheel was 109bhp. I don't care a stuff about that figure, but from a rider's perspective, the difference was chalk and cheese so I'll take it. I know my bike better than anyone else, I rode it up without the map and rode it back with it. 120 miles each way. I felt the difference. If Geoff is making good money from the remaps then good for him - why the hell not and there's no reason whatsoever he should share what he does on an open internet forum for goodness sake. There's so many "experts" on this forum and it's only their own ego's that makes them question what they can't understand. I can't understand it either, but I don't care. A Hilltop remap and Wilburs suspension are the two best things I've done to my bike in 6 years.

Well said. I've got the Wilbers and the Hilltop remap is next for me, I would prefer to listen to the comments from satisfied customers such as yourself than the ill informed egos on here who appear to be driving their own agenda.

 

[Bendy toy]

I keep seeing this quote about having to accommodate poor quality fuels, but I keep thinking that surely they would err on the rich side rather than the lean side to be safe?
If by poor quality fuel you meant that it had a higher octane rating then yes, lean off the mixture, but less octane generally means more knock.

I'm sure that allowed free rein, the BMW engineers would have an ECU map similar to what Geoff achieves. However they are required to meet certain fuel consumption figures by the marketing department. Running a lean mixture makes the mpg look good on steady state riding = happy marketing.
However low octane fuels (I should have been clear what I meant) will now be more harmful even with the knock sensor. Cheap fix - power turned down at the ECU map. The final requirement is for the bike to pass a noise test at 4,500 rpm, so they dropped in a fuelling dip to make it run even weaker but make less noise.

Its probably a result of big project politics and deadlines, but it seems odd that BMW never created a better solution. It's not like the Hexhead was quickly superseded.

 

[RedRick Esq.]

I knopw that this is getting Boring but

Dont the moto GP teams have different maps allowed ?
I.E full factory Vs Satelite and different fuel allowances as a result ?

I only throw this in so that the doubters and naysayers who claim that a simple re map cannot do all that is claimed can actually sit and think that maybe if Moto GP teams can why cant Geoff

 

[Roger 04 RT]

Are you the same guy on Advrider who was asking similar questions?

Whatever, why not, as I suggested to him, phone or email Hilltop directly. Your understanding of these things is clearly way above most of us in here. You could then disseminate your findings to us all.

Sadly the guy on Advrider never did it. He just seemed happy to snipe from the sidelines.

Andrés

Andrés, I don't think it was me but I think contacting Hilltop directly is a good idea. I have previously spoken to Dynojet and Techlusion.

Very good advice, Andres.

Roger - e-mail Geoff at Hilltop directly, then you will get technical answers rather than anecdotes. I suspect, by the style of your posts - that you won't, however.

Al

Al, Not sure why you think I wouldn't contact them. I assumed from some other posts in the thread, that Hilltop was unwilling to explain--my bad. I'll try and get out a note this week and post what I learn.

RB

 

[cammy5477]

Mine stalled twice today on the way to work....both times as I'm approaching a junction.

Bikes back to stock just now in prep for my visit to Geoff tomorrow. I've got over 300 miles each way to do so plenty of time to make up my mind what I think on the way home. Looking forward to getting it sorted now just hoping for Some dry weather ;-)