How does Nav 5 handle tracks?

[redsmartie]

I tried the recent MCN Yorkshire Dales route on Sunday. I downloaded the GPX and loaded it as a track. I converted it on the device to a trip but it took us on a merry dance.

I can only assume it was trying to force to the the start or finish. I thought that setting the Begin or End would just define the direction and it would allow us to join the route as we picked it up.

 

[Smug]

It is important to appreciate the difference between tracks and routes to better understand.

TRACK: YOU tell the GPS exactly what path you want to ride. You use a magic marker (track tool) and draw the track on the GPS’s maps. The track is a series of points connected by straight lines The track NEVER changes, you can give your track to 50 different people with 50 different GPS’s and when they load the track they will see the exact same track you do, no matter what GPS, what maps or what version of software they are running. As a matter of fact they will see the same track even if they don’t have maps in their GPS. Modern GPS's allow you to use up to 10,000 track points in creating a single track.

ROUTE: You give the GPS a series of points (waypoints or via’s) between you and your destination and THE GPS connects the dots using roads and trails it thinks are best. THE GPS tells you what path to ride. You can make the route more closely follow your desired path by inserting more via and way points. If you give your route to 50 different people with 50 different GPS’s you will probably end up with 30 different routes and 20 people that can’t even load your route. Once you start riding the route if you are not careful your GPS will calculate a new one for you.

 

[redsmartie]

Understand that but the Nav5 will not follow a track. It forces you to create a Trip. A trip has a start and an end and a number waypoints but is not a route


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[The Grey One]

It is important to appreciate the difference between tracks and routes to better understand.

TRACK: YOU tell the GPS exactly what path you want to ride. You use a magic marker (track tool) and draw the track on the GPS’s maps. The track is a series of points connected by straight lines The track NEVER changes, you can give your track to 50 different people with 50 different GPS’s and when they load the track they will see the exact same track you do, no matter what GPS, what maps or what version of software they are running. As a matter of fact they will see the same track even if they don’t have maps in their GPS. Modern GPS's allow you to use up to 10,000 track points in creating a single track.

ROUTE: You give the GPS a series of points (waypoints or via’s) between you and your destination and THE GPS connects the dots using roads and trails it thinks are best. THE GPS tells you what path to ride. You can make the route more closely follow your desired path by inserting more via and way points. If you give your route to 50 different people with 50 different GPS’s you will probably end up with 30 different routes and 20 people that can’t even load your route. Once you start riding the route if you are not careful your GPS will calculate a new one for you.

Do I detect a little bias here?

Your track may never change but the fact remains that the points also remain exactly where they were created which means they may or may not match other maps. The device see the points as a position rather than a particular part of a given road. On the version of the map in which the point was created the two would be the same. On another map the position is exactly the same but the map may have been drawn differently. Therefore point and road may not match leading to a whole world of hurt. If the originating map is wrong (Garmin maps often are) your device may try to take you along a non existent road or trail.

From my experience loading routes for guests at my hotel in Austria I concur that some will not be able to download a route. Basically this is because we tend not to read manuals (a trait, we found, shared by the Dutch, whereas most Germans had learnt how to use the device) I would load several routes each day, often loading the same route to a variety of devices. I soon figured out how to ensure they all ended up with the same route.

If the route is made up of sufficient via points and waypoints it can be loaded on a wide range of devices and work as intended. Such simple tactics a always putting a via point for a junction just after the turn and not before it help enormously. I order for this to work, however, it is important that the device preferences are set in the same way as those used to make up the route. The device does indeed work out what road to use between two via points or waypoints. It does this based on the preferences set by the operator. If one device is set to "fastest time" and another to "shortest distance" inevitably there will be differences in the outcomes. This, I found, was the major cause of complaints that several devices had calculated the route differently.

I took to setting preferences myself before loading routes. It was interesting to see just how people had set such things. Many did not even know the preference settings existed. One guy had set his to "Off road" and complained loudly that "The bloody thing is useless, it keeps tying to get me to ride in a straight line"! I had upwards of 60 routes, many of which were loaded to hundreds of devices. Most people found they worked without problems whatever the device. I have to say that where there were problems I often found (by downloading the track actually taken) that a routing direction had been missed and therefore the device had re calculated the route. Remember that this is in the Alps, taking a wrong turning often means heading in entirely the wrong direction with no simple way of getting back on the intended route.

To sum up it is quite possible to share routes provided the route has been carefully constructed and all users set their preferences to match each other.

John

 

[redsmartie]

Sorry for the late short reply last night. To elaborate.

I have the GPX loaded and it appears in Tracks. When I select it I can see it on the map preview. I then press the spanner icon and select Convert to Trip
I then have the selection of Start to Finish or Finish to Start. I selected Start to Finish.
I accept the name and press Done, it then calculates the route and adds it to the trip planner.

On the day I selected it in Trip Planner and pressed Go which tried to take me on the route but after taking me down some odd lanes and round in a circle it said I was at the END. I tried to restart it to take me Start to Finish but it just took me round in a circle.

I can see now that if I click the start flag I can change the start location to various options including Where I am Now.

Am I doing the right thing? What should I expect to happen. What if I want to join the route (a loop) partway through and pick up at that point.

At this point I'm a little confused and don't want to waste an hour faffing around like I did on Sunday.

 

[redsmartie]

It does this based on the preferences set by the operator. If one device is set to "fastest time" and another to "shortest distance" inevitably there will be differences in the outcomes. This, I found, was the major cause of complaints that several devices had calculated the route differently.

I have mine set to fastest route with a few 'avoids' as possible

The source is here http://www.motorcyclenews.com/greatrides/ The February 17 route: Kirkby Lonsdale to Ripon.

 

[The Grey One]

I have mine set to fastest route with a few 'avoids' as possible

The source is here http://www.motorcyclenews.com/greatrides/ The February 17 route: Kirkby Lonsdale to Ripon.

.

Looks like they are designed for a TomTom. I downloaded the track, converted it to a route (on latest version of Basecamp) and loaded it on my 390. Not sure how it is supposed to work as there appear to be no via points and if I tried to start from home it just took me to the waypoint. I tried downloading direct to the device with the same result. I have created a route that follows their roads , downloaded it to my 390 and that works even if I start from home. So I think the answer is, rubbish in rubbish out, the MCN stuff as is won't work properly on a Garmin

John

 

[Tomcat]

Loops are often problematic, as it is easy to make the GPS take you straight from start to finish by fastest/shortest/wiggliest route depending on the machine settings. If you're not sure where the GPS is going to take you, use the route preview to check.

Similarly, if you have turned the track into a route, use the route preview facility to see what the Nav V has actually calculated. Use 'fastest' as the routing criterion, not 'shortest' or 'curvey'. You may well find it simpler to display the track on the map screen and simply ride to what you see on screen.

If I receive tracks for a journey that I want to replicate then I load the file into Basecamp and take a look at how it is structured - eg are there waypoints at the start and end? There are various tools that will turn a track into a route but it is often quicker to simply create a new route and trace it over the track. Make a start waypoint and an end (separate them if the route is a loop - better still break the loop into an 'out' and a 'back') then create a route that overlays the track by whichever method you prefer.

 

[redsmartie]

I did consider the Basecamp option. I was going to simplify it by making the start and end our usual meet up, probably Devils Bridge, so it took out the uncertainty of someone else meet up point.

 

[linssen]

I use ViewRanger to create the routes since it's easy to switch maps, and it'll auto route even through lanes. The process goes a little like this...

• Download GPX to computer
• Load into Garmin Basecamp
• Convert it to a track
• Transfer the track to the Navi V
• To to Apps > Tracks on the device
• Select the track from 'Saved' and hit the gear icon for settings
• Select 'Show on Map' and change the colour to something with a bit more contrast
• Bonus points for changing the maps to Topo from Nagivation Settings > My Maps

It's just not worth trying to convert it to a trip because it constantly goes wrong, even if you've got route recalculation on. Hoping at some point they'll add line thickness and direction indication, and it'll be a lot easier to follow.

 

[chrisjk]

Understand that but the Nav5 will not follow a track. It forces you to create a Trip. A trip has a start and an end and a number waypoints but is not a route


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It will follow a track. You have a couple of options

1. Set the track to be visible. Follow the track as you would a line on a map. You get no warnings or directions from the unit and it's up to you to keep an eye on where you are relative to the track.
2. In Basecamp, create a route from the track. This route will have only two points, a start and a finish. Insert additional waypoints as you choose upto a maximum of 29 between the start and finish.
Set your Nav V to DO NOT recalculate, then transfer the route.
3. If you let the NAV V recalculate, it will try to avoid places where there is no road but you can still follow the track and if you have inserted waypoints wisely, the next time you are back on roads, it will guide you to the next waypoint that you have not yet passed through. If it tries to send you backwards, that waypoint was poorly chosen. Just use the skip function on the Nav V to tell it to ignore that one.

 

[khunpaul]

It will follow a track. You have a couple of options

2. In Basecamp, create a route from the track. This route will have only two points, a start and a finish. Insert additional waypoints as you choose upto a maximum of 29 between the start and finish.
Set your Nav V to DO NOT recalculate, then transfer the route.
.

The trick for creating a route from a track in BaseCamp is as follow:

1.Get the Track in My Collection pane. You can copy and paste it from Mapsource or the Nav V/Zumo itself.

2. If you look at the track detail it might have hundreds of points between start and finish. You do not want hundreds in a route.

3. Be very careful which 'Activity Profile' you have selected from the drop down menu. Mine is permanently set at 'Motorcycling' except only during this type of conversion.

4. If you right click a track within any Activity Profile there is an option called 'create a route from selected track'. This will take ages to convert because it is using ALL the viapoints although you only see the start and finish as said above. Also, you can not load a route with all those viapoints in to a Garmin.

5. The better way is to temporarily change the Activity Profile to 'Direct' which seems illogical but wait and see!

6. This time when you right click the track it gives you the option of choosing how many via point you want. You can choose say 10 or 20 etc..

7. When you see the route it will contain some straight lines not on a road. Change the Activity back to Motorcycling in two places: (1) in the main menu drop-down above and (2) double click the newly produced route and there is another drop-down which has changed itself to Direct. As soon as you change to Motorcycling it recalculates using actual roads.

8 What I do is then is to do this several times until I have the minimum number of via points to make the route look exactly like the old track. I do sometimes manually remove or manually add a new points if the ones chosen look illogical or ridiculously close together.

Interestingly as a Mapsource fan this is one of the main reasons I use Basecamp functionality because then I copy and paste the new route back in to Mapsource to fine tune and store as a file.

Much more detail of course on www.zumoforums.com but watch out there for BaseCamp followers who decry Mapsource as being defunct.

 

[Ex-Call Centre Chimp]

I'm reading this with interest & no small amount of confusion.
A group of us are heading to France in a couple of week's time & one of the lads has been good enough to sort out our routes for us on Basecamp & send us the GPX files.
I've xferred the files to Basecamp, then added them to the Nav V as tracks, converted that into a route & now my route & the original no longer coincide.

It's all a bit of a faff given that the routes were created on Basecamp, xferred to Basecamp & then uploaded to 2 x different Garmin devices & yet we still don't end up going the same way if we follow our new routes.

Surely it would be far more logical to just be able to create a route on any Basecamp, xfer that to any other Basecamp & then in turn, xfer that to any other Garmin sat nav as it stands. Why there's a need to make it a Track then convert it to a route is beyond me. Still, that's Garmin for you.

I shall have a play about with the routes/tracks/settings/Basecamp thing again over the weekend based on the notes above & see if I can sort things out.

Alternatively I might just follow him when we get to La Belle France.

 

[khunpaul]

I'm reading this with interest & no small amount of confusion.
A group of us are heading to France in a couple of week's time & one of the lads has been good enough to sort out our routes for us on Basecamp & send us the GPX files.
I've xferred the files to Basecamp, then added them to the Nav V as tracks, converted that into a route & now my route & the original no longer coincide.

It's all a bit of a faff given that the routes were created on Basecamp, xferred to Basecamp & then uploaded to 2 x different Garmin devices & yet we still don't end up going the same way if we follow our new routes.

Surely it would be far more logical to just be able to create a route on any Basecamp, xfer that to any other Basecamp & then in turn, xfer that to any other Garmin sat nav as it stands. Why there's a need to make it a Track then convert it to a route is beyond me. Still, that's Garmin for you.

I shall have a play about with the routes/tracks/settings/Basecamp thing again over the weekend based on the notes above & see if I can sort things out.

Alternatively I might just follow him when we get to La Belle France.

Terminology is very important. Your friend would have likely sent you 'routes' not 'tracks'. When you send them to Garmin the modern machines call them 'trips' and are located in APPS. Think of tracks only as breadcrumbs for others to follow that you are laying down behind you as you actually do the ride.

Make sure you all have the same map version on all your GPS's and PC's - eg 2016.3. And that you have set routing to the same eg 'Fastest Route'. Not 'shortest distance'.

 

[The Grey One]

Terminology is very important. Your friend would have likely sent you 'routes' not 'tracks'. When you send them to Garmin the modern machines call them 'trips' and are located in APPS. Think of tracks only as breadcrumbs for others to follow that you are laying down behind you as you actually do the ride.

Make sure you all have the same map version on all your GPS's and PC's - eg 2016.3. And that you have set routing to the same eg 'Fastest Route'. Not 'shortest distance'.

Not just the routing, make sure all the preferences are set the same. If one has "avoid motorways" and another has not then,unless there are lots of via points to prevent it, one device will pick a non motorway route and the other will use a handy motorway to complete your "fastest route" . Same applies to all the other choices, if they all match there is far less chance of differences in routing occurring. This is far more important than map versions as most map updates leave the vast majority of roads unchanged.

As long as a route has been made using enough via points then transferring that same route to a wide range of devices should not be a problem providing all devices have the same set of preferences. I found that the positioning of via points and waypoints to be the key to success. You need to ensure as far as possible that any device will follow the intended path.

John

 

[Ex-Call Centre Chimp]

Thanx Comrades.

 

[linssen]

The trick for creating a route from a track in BaseCamp is as follow:
5. The better way is to temporarily change the Activity Profile to 'Direct' which seems illogical but wait and see!

6. This time when you right click the track it gives you the option of choosing how many via point you want. You can choose say 10 or 20 etc..

7. When you see the route it will contain some straight lines not on a road. Change the Activity back to Motorcycling in two places: (1) in the main menu drop-down above and (2) double click the newly produced route and there is another drop-down which has changed itself to Direct. As soon as you change to Motorcycling it recalculates using actual roads.

This is awesome. I have the Mac app, which might be a bit different? But when I selected 'Off Roading' from the activity, the route calculated itself with 50 waypoints. I don't get the choose how many waypoints, and I believe 50 is the max the device will handle, but it did it almost spot on. Have a look at the route (pink) and the original track (grey) in this image

Haven't tried to follow it yet, but I'll give it a whirl this weekend, hopefully. Thanks, khunpaul!

 

[leedude03]

Some people see the .gpx file name and think its a route others think its a track when it can be both and this also aplies to the .gdb file format and until you drop it into one of the many mapping progs you dont know, there are many ways to change one to another, personally if its a short track i would just trace it (overlay a route on top), if it was a long and complicated track i would convert it using the basecamp function convert to route and then compare the converted route to the track, and drag it about if its altered it, to match the track.
As above try to ensure all your settings are set to the same on device and prog before you transfer,

 

[Wapping]

Leedude has it right.

Simplest is always best.