is this the cause of EWS failure?

[cookie]

heard from dealer today....

possibly UV altering the plastic of the ring antenna case, preventing proper communication with the key

if that is the cause, how come we get so many failures in cloudy england?

 

[SMB]

I was told by my dealer that there was a faulty batch of 7000 odd units. Who knows what the truth is.
SMB

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

heard from dealer today....

possibly UV altering the plastic of the ring antenna case, preventing proper communication with the key

if that is the cause, how come we get so many failures in cloudy england?

sounds like complete bollox to me.

 

[shugie]

sounds like complete bollox to me.

Indeed, not only do we not get much UV here in murkyland, a lot of bikes live pampered lives in garages, and only see the sun occasionally.

And it takes a lot of sun to leach the plasticiser out of PVC and make it brittle. Then of course brittle is not the same as an electrical failure, so you'd expect to see some physical damage, perhaps caused by keys bashing about, before there is much risk of damage to the components within the EWS thingy.

Which components are probably a chip, a few capacitors and a coil of wire. I'd be inclined to suggest that water ingress into the circuit causing corrosion is a more likely cause of failure, but the Americans get similar problems riding where there is no rain, so even water seems an unlikely culprit.

How about vibration fatiguing some connection within the widget?

Anyone got a bust one to dismantle and investigate?

 

[sven]

If they believe the failures are limited to a batch of 7000 ring antennas, it suggests a faulty batch from a single supplier - probably the usual problem of the purchasing department placing orders with a cheap supplier who can't deliver a product of acceptable quality

 

[cookie]

i was also told, all are likely to be replaced.

 

[deaninkl]

May I add the thought that it (touch wood) seems to effect the UK worse than anywhere else??

In Malaysia my dealer has not had the problem on any GS (they sell about 100 a year) I have not heard of the problem in Singapore, and from this site and ADVRider I notive our Ausie brothers don't have much trouble and the Yanks seem it complain much less about it.

I have heard many repports related to the failure occuring near petrol stations, related to frequencies of transponders or hp networks. Could it be that in the UK the amount of interference in so high that the EWS is extra suceptable to failure??

Just a thought.

 

[Robbo1200ADV]

I had a Harley Fat Boy that Failed to start at a BP petrol station in Dorking just across the road from Surrey Harley Davidson and it was down to a mobile phone mast.Pushed the bike half a mile and it started.loads of petrol stations have these Masts ,I think thats why they dont like you to use a mobile phone on the forecourt as it theoretically can ignite the fuel tanksor am i talking utter shite

 

[Engineer]

Pure speculation of course but ...... could be modern Pb free solder - no end of problems with that stuff; soldering process control more difficult; very easy to get it wrong and end up with weak joints - not so important on consumer stuff; but automotive electronics that are exposed to extreme conditions of vibration and temperature needs to be more robust.

But whatever is the cause it does have a very strong smell of poor quality control.

 

[MattW]

I think thats why they dont like you to use a mobile phone on the forecourt as it theoretically can ignite the fuel tanksor am i talking utter shite

Apparently this is just arse covering by fuel companies / mobile phone manufacturers. It arose from an incident in the states where someone got burned after fuel vapours ignited while he was filling his car. He was talking on his phone at the time, but later analysis decided that it was probably a static discharge due to him latching the pump and getting into and out of his car while it was filling - when he returned to the pump, he grounded himself on the pump and sparked. Of course the litigation machine swung into action and we now are told that the world will end if we use a phone while in sight of a fuel station.

 

[Robbo1200ADV]

Apparently this is just arse covering by fuel companies / mobile phone manufacturers. It arose from an incident in the states where someone got burned after fuel vapours ignited while he was filling his car. He was talking on his phone at the time, but later analysis decided that it was probably a static discharge due to him latching the pump and getting into and out of his car while it was filling - when he returned to the pump, he grounded himself on the pump and sparked. Of course the litigation machine swung into action and we now are told that the world will end if we use a phone while in sight of a fuel station.

Thanks!! See this plce is the Font of all knowledge!!

 

[PhilM]

IIRC, mobile phones and petrol stations were tested by Mythbusters and found to be bo**ocks.

With regard to the plastic and uv, we have this problem with the products we store at work. Yes the plastic does degrade but it has to have been sitting outside for several years before there is a noticeable difference.

 

[Fanum]

The RF interference theory has a lot going for it IMO...but surely only for preventing the transponder from working at that site rather than causing a failure

I've had alarms that have been inoperative near some RF masts...I even had one years ago that used IR frequencies on a pad on the screen that wouldn't work in car parks with fluorescent tubing, but all worked again when the car/bike was moved out of range.

I can't see that the signals would damage the transponder or the circuitry, merely prevent it from working there

Unless perhaps this accounts for the apparent increased numbers of reports in the UK...perhaps we have our 'normal' share of actual failures, then a lot of 'failures' actually being intermittent faults caused by RF interference that are reported as 'failures'

 

[bowser]

If they believe the failures are limited to a batch of 7000 ring antennas, it suggests a faulty batch from a single supplier - probably the usual problem of the purchasing department placing orders with a cheap supplier who can't deliver a product of acceptable quality

Brings to mind story of Neil Armstrong, interviewed after the moon landings, when asked what was he thinking of at blast off his reply was "that I was sitting on top of 2 Billion dollars worth of the cheapest components the American government could get anywhere in the world"

 

[RogerJ]

Is this the cause of EWS failure?

Thanks Cookie! I'll be sure to only take her out after dark now for sure. Obviously cloudy days are a no go. Sounds like my dermatologist.....thinks nobody should go out in the daylight or risk a skin malfunction. Cheers!

 

[SPL]

Hmmm - doesn't sound all that plausible to me.

Especially as there have been lots of posts here about failures on almost new bikes this year (and I haven't seen a lot of strong sunlight this summer)

Reminds me of the days in F1 when it was never admitted that an engine had let go; poker faced drivers claiming hydraulic or electrical failure stood next to a car that had just spewed oil all down the road

 

[muppix]

i was also told, all are likely to be replaced.

My 1200 had a routine service while I was travelling through Germany a few weeks ago and they replaced the antenna as part of the recall.

Not had any problems before nor since, so I dunno ...

Mup.

 

[cusi]

Pure speculation of course but ...... could be modern Pb free solder - no end of problems with that stuff.

My son's X Box 360 has died due to this, apparently MS are fixing for free.

 

[Ali-bear]

There's plenty of reasons for an Xbox 360 to fail.

For the ring antenna problem, I think the ring component was either poorly specified in the first place, or poorly made and poorly tested. I think the latter is more likely - the automotive components business operates on low margins. This is why quality control is so important. Some suppliers and/or batches may be ok and others may not have the specified inductance and/or excessively high resistance.

The effect of an out-of-spec ring antenna would be weaker EM coupling between the sensor circuit and the key transponder chip. This will make the system less reliable and more susceptible to EM interference, hence the EWS failures tend to happen near forecourts, power lines, transmitter masts etc.

Honda have been shipping bikes with HISS for years ...

 

[snoopy]

The antenna is usually enamelled copper wire for transponders and very thin (the thinner and more windings the better it picks up a signal). It's failure is probably down to vibration; the root of most motorcycle problems.

I'd also hedge a bet that's what kills the fuel controller.

As an example, when I rode through France on the DRZ a year ago I had an aftermarket LED relay installed. The vibrations didn't seem too bad to me but they snapped the three legs on the larger transistor inside the unit. It's amazing at what vibrations can do.