I've just had it explained to me ...

  • Thread starter Thread starter Trippy
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I cant because to be honest I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about.

:D

:clap:clap:clap:clap:bow

I knock 1200's as much as anyone else....the plain fact is that I don't like them , don't feel comfortable on them and there are some serious and as yet unaddressed QC issues with them.

The canbus system, however, really isn't part of that list......I've yet to see one report of a problem that's actually down to the canbus (rather than the items dangling off the end of the wires)

In principle, it's a very good system and it's been used in cars for many years....on a bike, a small saving in weight is more significant than in a car, so as long as it works (which it does) then it's got to be a step in the right direction IMO.

:thumb
 
what canbus electrics are and how it works.

F*ck me what a load of over complicated shite to fit to a motorcycle, no wonder the f*cking things keep breaking down.

-1

I think Canbus is great. No more poxy PITA fuse boxes taking up space in silly places (R1100S/VFRs for instance). No more carrying around a 'greatest hits' set of spare fuses just in case.
 
what canbus electrics are and how it works.

F*ck me what a load of over complicated shite to fit to a motorcycle, no wonder the f*cking things keep breaking down.


Can someone tell me what it is then???:confused::nenau
 
:clap:clap:clap:clap:bow

I knock 1200's as much as anyone else....the plain fact is that I don't like them , don't feel comfortable on them and there are some serious and as yet unaddressed QC issues with them.

The canbus system, however, really isn't part of that list......I've yet to see one report of a problem that's actually down to the canbus (rather than the items dangling off the end of the wires)

In principle, it's a very good system and it's been used in cars for many years....on a bike, a small saving in weight is more significant than in a car, so as long as it works (which it does) then it's got to be a step in the right direction IMO.

:thumb

Your wrong Billious,

Get comfortable :P

The 1200 is the one true God....

We've done a recorded 123.2 on the autobahn and run a back flattie for 35k in Romania...

K proof.

:beerjug:
 
sorry - this explains it much more clearly

http://www.atsr.ie/CANbusTechnology.htm

Introduction to CAN bus Technology

CAN, Controller Area Network, is the name given to a system of control units that communicate and respond to each other on a CAN bus network. Bus is a network in which all control units are attached to a line directly and all signals pass through each control unit. Each unit has its own unique identity and will only respond to those signals intended for it.

Multiplex is a multi function power and communication cable that visits each control unit. The power is distributed by the control units to operate the chosen devices. It is also known as power-line communication (PLC).

Depending on the manufacturer CAN bus will usually consist of two wires twisted together: CAN high and CAN low. CAN high is the high speed signal network and is used to operate systems such as engine control units, safety features and ABS control.
CAN low is the low speed signal network and is used to operate systems such as lighting, seat electronics and electric windows.

If you think of the CAN bus network as a postal system, each data signal would be a message with a postcode and each control unit a mail sorter with its own postcode address. If we use the brake lights as an example, when you press the brake pedal this is registered by a control unit which then creates the message ‘operate brake lights’ with a postcode ‘rear light control unit’. The message is then sent on the CAN bus, it will pass through each control unit and the postcode will be read. If it does not have that control unit’s specific postcode, then the message is passed on. When the postcode is read by the control unit it is addressed to, the rear light control unit, the message is opened and read. The rear light control unit will then operate the brake lights as instructed. All this happens in milliseconds and so to the user it will seem instant.

The CAN protocol was created by the Robert Bosch Corp. in 1984. The first full production application was in 1992 on a Mercedes Benz. These systems are now used in most vehicles because it is cheaper, lighter and reliable. It also makes fault diagnosis easier. Less wire and less connections makes design and installation faster with only one loom (system of wires) required for each model regardless of specification. The weight of a traditional car loom is around 40% heavier than a multiplex/CAN bus loom. Lighter cars have better performance, economy and emissions.

Most electrical faults are due to poor connections, less wire means less connections and so reliability is improved. Any post production improvements can be downloaded into registered vehicles. All faults are registered and stored allowing the technician to interrogate the car and rectify the fault. Also the in-built diagnosis makes it possible for certain functions to work with limited functionality if a fault occurs, instead of failing to function completely.

It is hard to recognise multiplex and CAN bus unless you have the correct Current Flow Diagram (CFD). The actual CAN bus wires are quite thin and twisted together many times. The twisting helps to reduce interference from other power sources. Most cars with these systems will have fewer relays and fuses as the switching is done electronically. If a fault occurs the control unit will shut the power off until rectified. Vehicles that have a comprehensive Driver Information System or a multifunction screen and controller dial will certainly use CAN bus technology. It has been in vehicles since 1992, most vehicles now have it in some form or another and very soon it will be used for most systems in every vehicle.
 
That's not a bad summary :thumb2

Cutting out the fluff from the outside, we get to the simple, short version which is in that middle para....

If you think of the CAN bus network as a postal system, each data signal would be a message with a postcode and each control unit a mail sorter with its own postcode address. If we use the brake lights as an example, when you press the brake pedal this is registered by a control unit which then creates the message ‘operate brake lights’ with a postcode ‘rear light control unit’. The message is then sent on the CAN bus, it will pass through each control unit and the postcode will be read. If it does not have that control unit’s specific postcode, then the message is passed on. When the postcode is read by the control unit it is addressed to, the rear light control unit, the message is opened and read. The rear light control unit will then operate the brake lights as instructed. All this happens in milliseconds and so to the user it will seem instant.

Or to put it another way.......

there are lots of tiny magic postmen in your wiring......they sort it all out for you so you don't have to worry about it......

:beerjug:
 
Your wrong Billious,

Get comfortable :P

The 1200 is the one true God....

We've done a recorded 123.2 on the autobahn and run a back flattie for 35k in Romania...

K proof.

:beerjug:

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say.......can we have that in soberese tomorrow please? :comfort
 
I was involved on a canbus project in the 1990s, for Xerox. 15 years on the technology has to be pretty robust.

The principle reason for using canbus is cost. This is not just the cost saving in material as you use less copper wire but the cost in assembly.

With canbus you can assemble the different modules in far flung places and bring them together for final assembly. This final assembly takes relatively little time because there is no complex routing of wires to be done, just a few plugs into the main loom.

Of course, you can make your sub-assemblies in China, Brazil & India. As long as the final assembly is done in the EU then it is an EU product.

From the reports on this forum it is BMW's outsourcing of the sub-assemblies that is the cause of most problems, not the actual canbus communications.
 
sorry - this explains it much more clearly

http://www.atsr.ie/CANbusTechnology.htm

Introduction to CAN bus Technology

CAN, Controller Area Network, is the name given to a system of control units that communicate and respond to each other on a CAN bus network. Bus is a network in which all control units are attached to a line directly and all signals pass through each control unit. Each unit has its own unique identity and will only respond to those signals intended for it.

Multiplex is a multi function power and communication cable that visits each control unit. The power is distributed by the control units to operate the chosen devices. It is also known as power-line communication (PLC).

Depending on the manufacturer CAN bus will usually consist of two wires twisted together: CAN high and CAN low. CAN high is the high speed signal network and is used to operate systems such as engine control units, safety features and ABS control.
CAN low is the low speed signal network and is used to operate systems such as lighting, seat electronics and electric windows.

If you think of the CAN bus network as a postal system, each data signal would be a message with a postcode and each control unit a mail sorter with its own postcode address. If we use the brake lights as an example, when you press the brake pedal this is registered by a control unit which then creates the message ‘operate brake lights’ with a postcode ‘rear light control unit’. The message is then sent on the CAN bus, it will pass through each control unit and the postcode will be read. If it does not have that control unit’s specific postcode, then the message is passed on. When the postcode is read by the control unit it is addressed to, the rear light control unit, the message is opened and read. The rear light control unit will then operate the brake lights as instructed. All this happens in milliseconds and so to the user it will seem instant.

The CAN protocol was created by the Robert Bosch Corp. in 1984. The first full production application was in 1992 on a Mercedes Benz. These systems are now used in most vehicles because it is cheaper, lighter and reliable. It also makes fault diagnosis easier. Less wire and less connections makes design and installation faster with only one loom (system of wires) required for each model regardless of specification. The weight of a traditional car loom is around 40% heavier than a multiplex/CAN bus loom. Lighter cars have better performance, economy and emissions.

Most electrical faults are due to poor connections, less wire means less connections and so reliability is improved. Any post production improvements can be downloaded into registered vehicles. All faults are registered and stored allowing the technician to interrogate the car and rectify the fault. Also the in-built diagnosis makes it possible for certain functions to work with limited functionality if a fault occurs, instead of failing to function completely.

It is hard to recognise multiplex and CAN bus unless you have the correct Current Flow Diagram (CFD). The actual CAN bus wires are quite thin and twisted together many times. The twisting helps to reduce interference from other power sources. Most cars with these systems will have fewer relays and fuses as the switching is done electronically. If a fault occurs the control unit will shut the power off until rectified. Vehicles that have a comprehensive Driver Information System or a multifunction screen and controller dial will certainly use CAN bus technology. It has been in vehicles since 1992, most vehicles now have it in some form or another and very soon it will be used for most systems in every vehicle.

Brilliant, all has become clearer, thanks.:thumb
 
Here is a really good description in how it is applied in BMW bikes:

http://bmwra.org/otl/canbus/

You can see how if all the peripheral stuff is done properly then reliability will be increased.

That is the best explanation I have seen. I still have a problem with it though, to the extent that I would not consider buying any motorcycle with it fitted, and that is that I understand how it works but not how to fix it?
How do you test it without expensive test equipment? It seems that there is a single point of failure ie the control box if so how expensive is that? How do you fix things at the roadside to get you home?
The man at the bmw shop simply said that you contact BMW assist and hadn't considered an eventuality where that was not available !!!
 
Every (generalisation!) fuel injected bike now has an ECU - a single point of failure - if it goes pop there is nothing you can do apart from replace it... a single point of failure that is nothing to do with CanBus ...

If you want to get out of modern elastictrickery then you need to go old school ... XR400 style ...
No ecu ... no battery ... no FI ... no abs .. no starter motor ... no fuel pump ... no ignition key ... :augie:thumb
 
Whether people love it or loathe it theres no getting away from the fact that it's here to stay. It's cheaper, lighter and electronics are the only way new bikes can pass the new emission reg's. It also makes our bikes faster and more economical so it's not all bad.

Yes it is harder to fix them but that's true of most things modern. In the good old days you could fix the telly by seeing which valve wasn't lit up, now we thankfully don't have valves and the telly doesn't break. Similarly, I'd not want to go back to contact breakers on me bike.

I would, however, admit I'd still be interested in a cut-down bulletproof basic version of the 1200GS that had the electrics off the 1150 with no ABS, no FPC, no ring antenna etc... and no CAN bus.:augie
 
I would, however, admit I'd still be interested in a cut-down bulletproof basic version of the 1200GS that had the electrics off the 1150 with no ABS, no FPC, no ring antenna etc... and no CAN bus


Don't see why not ... race bikes have racing wiring looms on them... it would a specialist bespoke service tho'
 


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