KTM are Toast ?

[Belco100]

Never had a problem (well -standard battery problem that you learn to manage) with my two KTM 1290 Super Adventures. In fact I was surprised at the quality of them and the level of thought that had gone into them - i.e. adjustable foot peg positions, 2 position forward an back handlebars, prewired accessory wires front and rear etc.

But, coming from BMWs for the last 15 years I have only found one good dealer (Redline) that rivals the level of BMW dealers I have been used to, and most dealers have come up from the Off-Road/Motocross backgrounds and it feels very much that KTM is still in that groove. I have seen KTM improve in the last few years - now giving 4 years warranty, but it is not possible to get a KTM extended warranty which is annoying as mine only came with the standard two years in 2022 . And the warranty is very hit and miss from KTM even if you have it, but you do now get lifetime (8 years) extended Mobility if you get a dealer service each year, which is useful if you tour abroad.

I think the other thing people moan about is the constant discounts, which are great if you are buying but not so good if you are selling or trying to trade in, but makes the market very unstable.

Having said all that, I would be happy with a 1390 Super Adventure EVO SMT if they ever launch it - which is looking less and less likely now?

 

[Belco100]

... did they give us £1k to spend on goodies too or did I dream that ...

Yeah, BMW were good at dealing with their issues. My mate had one of the first batch of XRs in the UK, and they all turned up without DRLs. They were all given a handout of up to a certain amount and I think he got an Acrapovic exhaust and then fitted the DRLs when the retro-fit kit came out. I had a small vibration on my Brand New K1600GT and they stripped it down and replaced the whole top end on the 600 mile service, but lent me their demonstrator to go to Austria on while this took place. That is really the sort of level KTM need to step up to.

 

[Number 6]

FUCKED

Pierer Mobility AG, the parent company of KTM, Husqvarna, GasGas, WP Suspension, and owner of 50.1% of MV Agusta have announced that KTM AG will require an investment of at least €100 million to stay financially stable in 2025.

In a statement released on 23 August, Pierer outlined that net debt had risen to €1.469 billion, with a further 200 job cuts on the horizon.

Surely that figure can't be correct? €100 million isn't even 1% of that. If they made €5000 profit per bike they'd have to sell 293,800 bikes just to clear the existing debt.

 

[cookie]

I assume they don't have to clear the debt, but service it.

 

[JJH]

I assume they don't have to clear the debt, but service it.

But how do you run up that kind of debt? Or how does any bank or financial institution keep giving money in this situation? If the figures are correct in the previous posts they must be insolvent. If a white knight rides to the rescue there will be very few survivors. I like KTM. The first 950 was a lovely bike which I considered at one time but bought a gs. There seems to be a lot of negativity around the brand with their sudden discounts and bad warranty handling. I’d be running to the dealer with my camshaft as quick as possible. Problem is the dealer will probably be running too…

 

[Rasher]

I assume they don't have to clear the debt, but service it.

They have more chance of succesfully servicing the MotoGP bike than them servicing that debt.

Can see it being broken up with maybe CF Moto picking up some IP and the Badge.

Having said all that, I would be happy with a 1390 Super Adventure EVO SMT if they ever launch it - which is looking less and less likely now?

I suspect they have already built some of next years bikes, might pickup a bargain!

I remember when Benelli went bust and Tornado's turned up for sale a couple of years after they were built at half original price, so may bag yourself and EVO for £10k if you hold on, I might buy two, one to ride and one for spares / to look good in your hallway.

 

[Rasher]

Not many dealers seem to have new 1290s left, so been knocking £3k off lately and advertising 3 years warranty - or until the liquidators turn up, whichever comes sooner I guess?

Wondering if they had issues with getting supplies and did not build many this year, or will we see a glut of them turn up later on?

Despite my 1290 being advertised here I am actually tempted just to hang onto it now, looking at the new £30k BMW's and Ducati's what is the £7k from my 1290 likely to get me, a Ducati Key Ring?

I'd probably get another 6 years out of mine on my mileage these days and still not have any real worries, that will involve one chain & sprockets and one tappet service - let's call it a grand, and then probably another 20,000 happy miles....

....and by then even if it was worth nothing it would of only averaged out at about £80 a month in depreciation.

 

[Apex]

But how do you run up that kind of debt? Or how does any bank or financial institution keep giving money in this situation? If the figures are correct in the previous posts they must be insolvent. If a white knight rides to the rescue there will be very few survivors. I like KTM. The first 950 was a lovely bike which I considered at one time but bought a gs. There seems to be a lot of negativity around the brand with their sudden discounts and bad warranty handling. I’d be running to the dealer with my camshaft as quick as possible. Problem is the dealer will probably be running too…

Business is a strange animal. Most 'group' type business purchase and service businesses they buy with borrowed cash. The idea being that the whole groups value grows and is possibly sold later for a much higher value and the debt is serviced. It's a risky business in todays world and there are winners and massive losers. Just because KTM needs £100m doesn't mean they're going bankrupt, not necessarily. I suspect that if they can continue to trade that the current crop of new bikes will do very well and things move on. Visited bike show today and I've drawn my own conclusions similar to others, namely that the big brands look set to experience pressure like they've never known it. There have been a trickle of Chinese bikes in recent years, but this does seem to look like a flood starting to me. CF Moto have a couple of bikes that look good, the MT 450 being one. Kove - the 450 rally is just such good value and well built. The guy said they've personally sold 80 odd since launch, which won't compare with the usual brands but does demonstrate that people are saying 'know what, I'm going to try one of these'. I sat on the Kove 800 adv bike and at 185kg's and 95hp it really shows whats coming down the track. The bike looks great in the flesh for £8.5k! I really liked the Himalian 450 in black/gold - £6k. This is the thing, you can get perfectly acceptable bikes now for £6-8k so why would you spend £28k on a multistrada? Or £18k on a 1290 or BMW. I still think the new KTM 390 adv R is a cracking looking bike, but what will they want for it? Probably too much, time will tell. Anyway, I babble, but like many have said....tough times ahead for the big players generally I would say, not just KTM.

 

[wessie]

Business is a strange animal.

their 2023 accounts are online. They made a profit on sales, patted themselves of the back and paid a dividend to the shareholders. At the same time their gearing went from around 25% in 2022 to over 80% in 2023. This coincided with buying a controlling interest in MV Agusta. I can't see anything to show how much they paid for the extra 25% needed but it does not look like they had any actual cash available for the transaction, hence the massive change in borrowing in relation to share capital.

 

[JJH]

I’ll admit I don’t understand business in the field of high finance. All the wheeling and dealing allowing someone to leverage companies with virtually no resources it’s very complicated and not for me or probably the so called common man. I can’t see a way out of this financial hole. Someone probably sees it as an opportunity. JJH

 

[Apex]

I’ll admit I don’t understand business in the field of high finance. All the wheeling and dealing allowing someone to leverage companies with virtually no resources it’s very complicated and not for me or probably the so called common man. I can’t see a way out of this financial hole. Someone probably sees it as an opportunity. JJH

It's very common for a business to own a group of complimentary companies. Acquisitions are often made in the hope that the business connections they already have can be put to work on a new acquisition that might be faltering, turn the company around (or else keep it on an upward trajectory profit wise) and make it a cash earner for the group. I'm not in finance, but have witnessed quite a few acquisitions that have been spectacular successes once added to the group - often because new formally unavailable (or difficult) markets suddenly become available and off they go. However, I've seen companies that have been bought for millions and when they flop they've been sold on for £1 just to get shot from the group - I don't think KTM will be one of those £1 companies, ever, because the brand is too strong, but that's just an opinion. Who knows?

 

[JJH]

Might be worth £2? JJH

 

[Watty100]

Perhaps they should have given a couple of bikes to Ewan and Charlie 20 years ago?

 

[theoneandonly]

Perhaps they should have given a couple of bikes to Ewan and Charlie 20 years ago?

now that is a right smack in the kisser !

but true , i bet they have been kicking themselves ever since they said NO , and it appeared on the telly.

 

[cookie]

KTM have said that they didn't have the resources to do Long Way Round at the time. It would have looked very bad if they had fucked up.

 

[Apex]

now that is a right smack in the kisser !

but true , i bet they have been kicking themselves ever since they said NO , and it appeared on the telly.

Except to say that real men are real men and real men know that orange bikes don't need to be on the telly to realise that they're just better bikes. Until they break a bit. But then once that's over all is forgotten in favour owning a bike that isn't dull and doesn't make you feel like you're smearing lipstick all over a marketing mans glossy brochure. KTM's might not come with round the world dreams, but at least they offer real world excitement.

 

[Rasher]

I heard from someone inside KTM at the time that they offered Ewan and Charlie the bikes and spares etc. but BMW offered them cash on top, and the "KTM have pulled out" staged phone call was bollox, they had not pulled out, but just said they would not pay them.....

....At the time they probably thought it was high risk, they may not make it, maybe give up the first time it got a bit chilly, or the bikes might have issues and make KTM look bad.

BMW thought, this is a fucking doddle, ship a load of spare bikes to various points in the world, pay for a huge suport crew with spares and factory mechanics and have a helicopter on standby to make sure there is nothing they cannot cross, then ensure final cut approval to keep the reality from ever hitting the screens of punters who will snap up the continent crushing, big hopping 400kg Motorcycles. Easy!

BMW did an awesome job in seeing an opportunity and taking it - and KTM still flogged a lot of bikes off the back of it without spending a penny.

 

[Engineer]

Can't see this helping KTM sales - who would risk buying an expensive adventure bike from them in the current climate?

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

A corporate buyer may well be found soon
Plenty of rumours abound

 

[mike wright]

Interesting as I looked at buying a new 1290 however the previous model I found had all the goodies, full luggage and 1.5 yrs old with 2500 on the clock for 8k less 6k less so a no brainer. Also I considered the stupid pricing and discounts structure which is normally after you bought the new bike so straight away you have a huge loss then KTM add to that with a discount on new bikes. If you are lucky and the right time its fine but thats why I didnt buy new