Leaking tire question

[ianboydsnr]

I've been riding motos for many many years. I just got a little nail or piece of metal in the rear tire and have a slow leak.
What is the best permanent fix? Dealership? Tire place? Can it be permanently fixed on a bike with all the pressure in tight corners? Oh yeah, Michelin PR4s, one inch off center of the tire to the left.
Any help would be great as this is my first tire issue. (amazingly lucky this is the first in 25 yrs)

He said he had a small nail in the tyre and a slow leak, an inch off centre of the tyre, where does the large screw in the sidewall factor here?

If it was me I would pour into the tyre some punctureseal!

wouldn't use the stuff normally, but if it's a slow puncture I would leave in and add the sealant!

how does that make me a pro punctureseal evangalist?

Part of the official product description of Tyre Weld from the manufacturers (Holts).
Note the portions in red:
Be prepared for a puncture at any time by carrying Tyreweld. It is a quick and simple repair in order to get you home, so you're not left stranded at the roadside. No wheel change is necessary, so don't worry if you can't change a tyre yourself. All you have to do for this quick fix, is just connect the canister to the valve on your vehicle tyre and press the button.

'Quick fix'. 'In order to get you home'.
There's a good reason for that. What happens if you pick up a second puncture while this stuff is still in your tyre? You won't know about it, that's what. This stuff is not meant to be a 'magic bullet' that solves all your puncture-related problems.



I'd say you've had an amazing run of luck - so far.

I wish you even more luck the next time you advise a customer to 'just leave it in the tyre and forget about it'. Let's expand on my example above: say that customer picks up a self-tapping screw that penetrates the steel cord (but they don't know about it because the tyre doesn't lose air) and that screw starts getting forced back and forth by road contact, creating an ever-widening hole through which the air suddenly escapes while the rider's doing 160+ Km/h.
These things happen. I've seen the aftermath of them, and they are not pretty.

Next, let's say the rider survives and is interviewed in his hospital bed by police.
"You experienced a high-speed blowout, Sir. Did anything unusual happen to your tyre recently?"
"Yes, I repaired a puncture with Tyre Weld."
"So, what speed were you doing at the time, Sir?"
"Oh, around 70 mph."
"You do know that tyres repaired using temporary sealants are considered 'For Emergency Use Only', right, Sir?"
"...But the guy who sold it to me told me just leave it in the tyre and forget about it!"
"Hmm. What's this person's name and address, Sir?"
"Ian. From Cumbria."
"Thank you, Sir. We'll be paying Ian a visit."

Having second thoughts yet?

Nobody mentioned a product from Holts, you tried to project to me that I would be liable, if someone had an accident, I merely pointed out that it would be the manufacturers liability, whether their claims are true or not is immaterial, bullshit from you is no different!

'Baited' breath? Have you been eating earthworms?

Oh, boy(d)... Where do I begin?
Perhaps I can make a good start by stating that bullsh!t doesn't always baffle brains.

Allow me to present a few quotes from the manufacturer's website:

"Punctureseal cures the porosity inherent in all tyres. In doing this, it reduces tyre temperature so evident when under-inflated tyres are put under stress."

It 'cures the porosity inherent in all tyres'? That's one hell of a claim.
The Millbrook test report presented on the manufacturer's website contradicts this by stating that there was a loss of pressure from one of the two tyres punctured during the test.

'It reduces tyre temperature so evident when under-inflated tyres are put under stress'?
Oh? How does it do that? And by how much?
Does it act as a heat sink? How can it, when it's in a totally enclosed environment?
Or is this a claim that it's some kind of guarantee against a tyre overheating when it's under-inflated?
If you believe that, stick around: I've got a bridge and some snake oil to sell you.

"While Punctureseal can operate at speeds up to 160mph, we do not recommend the product for competition biking."

At least they had the honesty to say this, and it's easy to see why.
If you put any kind of fluid into a rapidly rotating wheel/tyre assembly, the fluid mass will attempt to self-stabilize as it's thrown outward by centrifugal force.
But depending on the fluid's viscosity, it may also 'pool' under gravity. A certain portion of the fluid mass is also going to be forced from side to side in the tyre carcass under aggressive manoeuvering. (And your miracle cure is now doing something even more dangerous than masking punctures - it's making the bike's handling unpredictable.)
And because you've put a dynamically-changing mass into that wheel/tyre assembly, your wheel balancing is now shot. (And because the extra load is dynamic, no matter how many times you try to get the wheel balance right, it will always change.)

But here's the clincher. While the Millbrook test report is an impressive study of before-and-after scenarios when using Punctureseal under laboratory conditions, it makes no attempt to suggest counter-measures for situations which might arise in the real world.
What might happen if a typical customer (having gained a false sense of security from all the impressive claims) neglects to check the full outer surface area of both tyres before every ride?
I said before, in reference to Tyre Weld and similar products, that their self-sealing properties make it difficult or impossible to know that there is now a foreign object lodged in your tyre.
And so, I return to your original statement:

That's a direct contradiction of the manufacturer's instructions, also found on their website:

"If you find a nail or screw in your tyre, follow this procedure:
1. If the object is in the sidewall, replace the tyre.
2. If the object is in the tread area, unscrew the screw or pull out the nail.
3. Immediately drive 3km / 2 miles.
4. Check you air pressures. You may need to top up 0.5 to 1 PSI."

Punctureseal or not, a big enough screw or piece of sharp metal which enters at the right angle will stay in the tyre tread, working back and forth like a saw. And because most riders won't follow step 4 above as conscientiously as they should, they won't know about that puncture until it catches them by surprise.

The fact is that Punctureseal is a commercial product.
Therefore, the manufacturer has incentive to sell it. And if flaws are found in the product and/or its application, the manufacturer has incentive for spin-doctoring to ensure that those flaws are down-played and that the product continues to sell.

Pro-Punctureseal evangelists like yourself are also the best free advertising there is for a company like this.
So now that the ball is well and truly back in your court, Ian, ask yourself: how many bikers are you willing to endanger in order to put a few extra Guineas in your pocket?

Stupidity is relative - wouldn't you agree?

In the final analysis, though, I've probably wasted my breath. Those who know the science of how tyres work already know the things I've just said.
The rest will believe what they want to believe, sticking their fingers in their ears and going "...Na nah nah NAH nah!..."

It's a big claim that puncturseal endangers lives, perhaps you should take that up with puncturseal, maybe I am being stupid but, how will it put a few Guineas in my pocket, I don't sell the stuff, nor do I have any bikes with it installed?

underlined for the hard of thinking!

 

[Nick V]

Ian, it seems your only rebuttal to an argument is to impune the other person's intelligence.
It's getting very hard to take you seriously.

You can backpedal and avoid my questions for as long as you like. Whether or not I'm the one who asks them, they have been around for a long time, and they are valid.
I see no effective difference between a temporary gunk that masks punctures, and a 'permanent' gunk that masks punctures. The first method slaps a Band-aid on a cut artery that needs urgent stoppage, and calls it a great way to walk five kilometres to the hospital. The second method ties a tourniquet around the same cut artery and calls it a cure.
Either way, declaring that you can just put some gunk in a tyre and forget about it is irresponsible.

There is a world of difference between what you're willing to learn, and what you know. Or, in your case, what you think you know.
Maybe you do sling fifteen tyres a week. An honest living for which I congratulate you. And it's easy enough. It's part of how I started my technical career.
But I don't think you know much about the science that makes them roll.

This is starting to feel like lecturing a fifteen-year-old. I think I've given you enough credence for one year.
I'm done. See you in another thread.

 

[ianboydsnr]

Ian, it seems your only rebuttal to an argument is to impune the other person's intelligence.
It's getting very hard to take you seriously.

You can backpedal and avoid my questions for as long as you like. Whether or not I'm the one who asks them, they have been around for a long time, and they are valid.
I see no effective difference between a temporary gunk that masks punctures, and a 'permanent' gunk that masks punctures. The first method slaps a Band-aid on a cut artery that needs urgent stoppage, and calls it a great way to walk five kilometres to the hospital. The second method ties a tourniquet around the same cut artery and calls it a cure.
Either way, declaring that you can just put some gunk in a tyre and forget about it is irresponsible.

There is a world of difference between what you're willing to learn, and what you know. Or, in your case, what you think you know.
Maybe you do sling fifteen tyres a week. An honest living for which I congratulate you. And it's easy enough. It's part of how I started my technical career.
But I don't think you know much about the science that makes them roll.

This is starting to feel like lecturing a fifteen-year-old. I think I've given you enough credence for one year.
I'm done. See you in another thread.

Your opinion is your opinion, just that, no better or worse than someone with a different opinion, clearly though you have issues with the manufacturers and suppliers of those type of products, but as far as I am aware they are long running businesses, who take the legal responsibility for their products, I have not back pedalled on anything, I do not speak for those manufacturers and any issues you have of them is between you and them, I do not know enough about their products to be quizzed on their claims,

in the same situation in the past I have removed the nail and put in puncturseal, and I know of several people who use the product continuously, I don't need to now, I have access to the machine and plugs that repair it properly,

you stated what you think you know, which in fact is your own opinion nothing more, I merely counted with what the product advertising says, according to you that is wrong, because you know better, how do you know better? because all I have read from you seems to be your unqualified opinion!

what questions have I not answered?

you claimed I was biased because I gained selling the stuff, despite me having never sold any of it, you seem to be prone to jumping to conclusions, with an I know better attitude, your actual opinions look more like you know damn all about tyres, I struggle with being lectured by someone who seems to lack knowledge of the subject,

your simile is ridiculous, people have rode around with far bigger holes in their tyres, your exaggeration diminishes your credibility.

I do like your thread about fitting a belt drive to a 800Gs, but you do know that BMW never certificated that kind of modification, don't do it, because that is dangerous and you may die!




by the way my honest living doesn't involve fitting tyres, I actively leave my office and help out when it's busy, I like to get involved rather than just be another of those paper pushing engineers that project that they know everything, I don't claim to know everything, or a great amount, always room for improvement!

 

[JohnnyBoxer]

Your opinion is your opinion, just that, no better or worse than someone with a different opinion, clearly though you have issues with the manufacturers and suppliers of those type of products, but as far as I am aware they are long running businesses, who take the legal responsibility for their products, I have not back pedalled on anything, I do not speak for those manufacturers and any issues you have of them is between you and them, I do not know enough about their products to be quizzed on their claims, in the same situation in the past I have removed the nail and put in puncturseal, I don't need to now, I have access to the machine and plugs that repair it properly, you stated what you think you know, which in fact is your own opinion nothing more, I merely counted with what the product advertising says, according to you that is wrong, because you know better, how do you know better, because all I have read from you seems to be your unqualified opinion? what questions have I not answered? you claimed I was biased because I gained selling the stuff, despite me having never sold any of it, you seem to be prone to jumping to conclusions, with an I know better attitude, your actual opinions look more like you know damn all about tyres, I struggle with being lectured by someone who seems to lack knowledge on the subject,

your simile is ridiculous, people have rode around with far bigger holes in their tyres, your exaggeration diminishes your credibility.

I do like your thread about fitting a belt drive to a 800Gs, but you do know that BMW never certificated that kind of modification, don't do it, because that is dangerous and you may die!




by the way my honest living doesn't involve fitting tyres, I actively leave my office and help out when it's busy, I like to get involved rather than just be another of those paper pushing engineers that project that they know everything, I don't claim to know everything, or a great amount, always room for improvement!

Well said Ian