Non-ABS 1150 owners. Any regrets?

[Flyer]

For on-road riding, ABS is something you don't need until you need it. Then you do need it!

Spend the extra. It'll be there if you need it, and you'll get the money back in ease of selling the bike later, and a higher resale price.

It's a no brainer IMHO unless you intend to do a lot of off road.

Flyer

 

[boundless]

Don't have ABS for the same reason I don't change to the 1200GS.

I'm a cautious, timid, rational rider with a mature appreciation of the feckless, raging maniac biding his time within.

If I had ABS I'd gradually garner less and less fulfilment from due diligence and eventually diminished self respect from handing eternal vigilance over to mr helpful.....

Also my earliest memory of the correct braking technique when in doubt, panic or slurry was the slide, drop and step off technique. I'd prefer to keep that as my back up messy situation than learn some harder way how it doesn't really work any more on an ABS bike.

 

[Timolgra]

I spec my bike for my use - not the next owner's...

Mike

Very good point Mike and often overlooked on this topic.

Also if you don't often ride in the wet or other adverse conditions, then possibly all the more reason to have ABS, due to lack of practice.

I agree it does kick in a tad early on the rear but thats ok by me, I often use it to guage how slippy the surface is.

Tim

 

[Tsiklonaut]

It was my first day i bought my GS from Berlin to ride it home to Estonia 1600 kilometres, i wasn't very familiar with technical side and didn't know yet how ABS started or not, so in Poland, i started the bike with lights and heated grips on - ABS didn't got enough voltage to start often i rided away after tanking the bike, so i sayd myself then "heh, i don't need that ABS anyway!".

I used to think the same, until... I was almost killed in Poland when i ride on the night with deep fog, slippy tarmac and lot of traffic and ABS didn't worked at that time... And 100kph the car stopped in front of me, i saw the red lights very last moment through dense fog and - i braked till rear wheel got into block... (30% of braking power was instantly lost) Braking with bikes rear side about 45 degrees off the line i told myself - "now it's the end..." But the car on front saw my lights on very last moment and shifted quicky away from my direct braking path. So i passed it with rear wheel blocked, let it go, did a rearwheel-jump back to normal riding-line position, didn't beleaved later how i managed to got in under control though with that rear wheel jump... but i was saved by the God.

If i'd had ABS working on that moment, then i'd braked the bike to stop on normal time (tested the same distance later) in case IF the car didn't shifted away from my path. Indeed I'm glad i didn't overpushed the front brake (!) on that incident on slippy tarmac (used more than 70% of braking power), otherwise i'd been sliding on tarmac under the wheels of front car, ...with ABS, nothing like that happends. The rear side wouldn't slipped off the line because of slight rear wheel blocking indeed.

Now i see how forgiving the ABS can be on tarmac and often in gravel too. I switch it off on offroad though to keep my non-ABS braking experience "warm" in case it may not always work.

So, dear non-ABS drivers - ride always in self-protective mode, keep distance and remember you aren't 100% precise robots to use maximum braking power without any under-over braking errors.

Mo

Don't have ABS for the same reason I don't change to the 1200GS.

I'm a cautious, timid, rational rider with a mature appreciation of the feckless, raging maniac biding his time within.

If I had ABS I'd gradually garner less and less fulfilment from due diligence and eventually diminished self respect from eternal vigilance.

Also my earliest memory of the correct braking technique when in doubt, panic or slurry was the slide, drop and step off technique. I'd prefer to keep that as my back up than learn again how it works on an ABS bike.

 

[Deleted account 220427002]

It seems that most people that have opted for non-ABS feel obligated to say they have no regrets for no getting it fitted.

But I’ve had a couple of occasions where it would have gone a bit pear shaped if I hadn’t ABS fitted and I’m sure most have had occasions where they would have liked to have had it fitted even if only for a minute.

The problem I have is that in damp conditions I don’t know how hard to brake before the front starts to tuck, so on a non-ABS bike like my Africa Twin I don’t quite brake as hard as I might be able to. This tends to lead to more danger to myself when an emergency braking situation arises (I haven’t the same fear of braking hard with the ABS on my GS).

Maybe it’s my lack of skill in wet and damp weather riding conditions but I’d rather be with than without… there is a lot of stopping with the weight of a GS an then me as well!!!

I have to say if it was possible to ride all the time in the dry it could maybe be left off, but that never is the case in the UK.

People don’t complain about ABS and it’s superior stopping in wet and icy conditions when it’s fitted to their cars, so I don’t think they so ignore ABS benefits to a bikes braking in the right conditions. You can always switch it off if you don’t want it, but it being on the bike always gives you the option.

 

[Beemer]

I'm getting my new 1150 GS next Saturday, as daft as it may sound, I have no idea what sort of ABS it has. It's a March 03, and makes whirring noises, anyone want to hazard a guess?
Cheers
Steve

 

[Geoff2]

People don’t complain about ABS and it’s superior stopping in wet and icy conditions when it’s fitted to their cars, so I don’t think they so ignore ABS benefits to a bikes braking in the right conditions. You can always switch it off if you don’t want it, but it being on the bike always gives you the option.

ABS will not stop you quicker in icy conditions, in fact most books tell you to turn the ABS off when driving in icy conditions, purley for the reason that on ice, the wheels will immediately try to lock and the ABS will release. You will effectively have no brakes at all.

The true benefit of ABS brakes is not in the main, superior braking or shorter stopping distances. It is to keep you in control, by keeping the wheels turning under severe braking in an emergency stop situation. Therefore because the wheels keep turning, stopping distances on ABS machines will be greater than on non ABS equipped machines under dry conditions. Do not fall into the trap that your ABS will stop you, it wont, it WILL keep you in control to be able to steer

 

[Deleted account 220427002]

ABS will not stop you quicker in icy conditions, in fact most books tell you to turn the ABS off when driving in icy conditions,

The true benefit of ABS brakes is not in the main, superior braking or shorter stopping distances. It is to keep you in control, by keeping the wheels turning under severe braking in an emergency stop situation. Therefore because the wheels keep turning, stopping distances on ABS machines will be greater than on non ABS equipped machines under dry conditions. Do not fall into the trap that your ABS will stop you, it wont, it WILL keep you in control to be able to steer

I just went looking on the web because I don't agree with the first part of your statement about braking on ice and in the second part "Do not fall into the trap that your ABS will stop you, it won’t"

How can you say that...I think it is the opposite of your statement.
I think ABS WILL stop you quicker on all road conditions (unless you are a really skilled rider and then you may be able to out brake an ABS fitted bike in the dry not the wet).
Off road is a total different ball game you need to be able to lock the wheels.
The other thing about ABS is that it’s not going to stop stupidity…cranked over in a corner and apply full anchors.


I also thought that ABS was to stop your wheels locking, not to keep the "wheels turning or the bike under control". Not locking your wheels up has a bi-product of helping you keep control but that not a guarantee.

As for on ice, the wheels will be braking up to the point where the wheels would lock then release and then brake again. This has to be better than you locking up the front or back on a sheet of ice. At best the back end is going to slide around to the point where the front is going to go too.

So I’ll say your wrong and your talking bollox until someone else proves you right, then I’ll say I was only joking’ and I knew that all the time.

Here are a couple of bits off a web site I found on ABS.


ABS lengthens the theoretical stopping distance as it lets the brakes off when the wheel approaches lock. However, a rider faced with a real surface is unlikely to find the optimum brake force at the first attempt (the one that counts) and will never dare use the front brake (the most effective) enough because of the fall down risk associated with a locked front wheel. ABS used correctly therefore gives shorter real life emergency stops. ABS is required to meet 75% of the theoretical deceleration at the first attempt under EC directives. Most vehicles achieve 95% plus or beat the theoretical (proving the theoretical search using valves able to adjust brake pressure by 0.1 bar was not done to its full conclusion).


Off road, a wheel in deeper slip (nearer to locking) produces a small pile of particles (snow, gravel, dirt etc.) ahead of the wheel. This gives improved braking. This is why ABS has the off road/off switch. This should only be used on loose surfaces, not ice.

So to reiterate. If you are a super-duper motorcycle god ABS will be invisible to you. When the young child runs in front of your bike by the school or when you realize that there is stop sign you didn't see or when the car in front of you drops its tranny you will modulate your breaks and defeat the lock up. For the rest of us we can grab the front breaks in and mash the rear pedal and stop with out worrying about a low or high side from the skid (or the skid not stopping us fast enough and we kill the kid, run the stop, or hit the new transmission laying in the road in front of us...)


The web site i found

 

[Le singe]

I think a few people on this thread have said it already,if you are a competent rider,you don't need it.
As to the child running out in front of you,etc,why not slow down a bit?
The roads are greasy,a lot of fog about,why not slow down a bit?
The chap,who in an earlier thread about ABS,stated that he was about to overtake a lorry on the motorway when it did an emergency stop because of a problem in front,why was he overtaking when he clearly couldn't see in front?
ABS is there to replace rider skill and to give the rider the belief that he can maintain a higher speed in most conditions because he can apply the maximum braking forces possible without using his brain.
The rest of us ride more slowly in adverse conditions,leave a bit more room between ourselves and the car in front,slow down a bit more for schools,etc.
ABS won't stop you hitting the child that runs out,it will just reduce your speed as quickly as possible,so the impact will be less,riding 10mph more slowly will always be better.
You don't need to ride like an old fart to be safe,the road isn't the place to prove how near the edge you can ride,there are too many variables,get on a track and learn the skills properly.
Open,sweeping,clear roads,have fun,shite conditions,children,houses,just slow down.
I visited my local BMW dealer last week and was looking at a well smashed up BMW R1150GS,and it had ABS,surely this couldn't have happened!
It's also interesting that bikes that are bought by people who would be deemed 'rider' or 'enthusiasts' rather than 'bikers',are more likely to be fitted with ability removing aids.

 

[MikeP]

ABS will not stop you quicker in icy conditions, in fact most books tell you to turn the ABS off when driving in icy conditions, purley for the reason that on ice, the wheels will immediately try to lock and the ABS will release. You will effectively have no brakes at all.

The true benefit of ABS brakes is not in the main, superior braking or shorter stopping distances. It is to keep you in control, by keeping the wheels turning under severe braking in an emergency stop situation. Therefore because the wheels keep turning, stopping distances on ABS machines will be greater than on non ABS equipped machines under dry conditions. Do not fall into the trap that your ABS will stop you, it wont, it WILL keep you in control to be able to steer

S'right!

The quickest way to stop is to lock the wheels. Maximum friction, maximum retardation.

The problem comes in maintaining control in what is after all, a skid.

ABS will extend, albeit slightly, braking distances for two similar vehicles, same load, same speed, same brakes etc, etc.

It has been deemed beneficial to allow the additional element of control provided by ABS.

Most modern ABS systems now cut out below 5mph. This is because the phenomena of 'no brakes' at low speed on slippery surfaces where the ABS would release the brakes before any retardation could occur.

I have experienced this with an older application. Ford Sierra 4X4, on fresh snow. The ABS prevented the wheels locking and breaking through the snow to the road surface. It really was a 'no brakes' situation, fortunately only at 10 to 15 mph.

On a bike ABS has a slightly different function. With four wheels you are unlikely to tip the vehicle over if you lock the brakes. ABS on a bike does reduce the chances of this but doesn't remove it all together.

Back in the very early days of BMW ABS (bikes), I was lucky enough to go to the launch and have the opportunity to ride the ABS kitted K's at TRRL.

BMW had research that showed there was no need for 6 piston calipers and massive discs. That most riders of bikes with these "Carlos Fandango" brakes rarely used anything approaching 50% of the braking capability, even in emergency braking. One of the main reasons was fear of locking a wheel and losing control. This research was corroborated by TRRL who at the time were looking into deformable leg-shields and tank mounted secondary safety systems (anyone remember the MCN photo's?)

BMW chose to stick with their single piston brakes as a demonstration that if the rider had the confidence (afforded by ABS) to use the brakes to their full potential, the stopping power was more than adequate for road applications.

When they launched ABS equipped bikes, BMW went out of their way to state that ABS was not intended to be an aid to performance, merely an aid to braking and that the laws of physics still applied!

Back to the original question. It's a non-question really. I doubt if anyone who has specifically bought a non-ABS bike will ever say that they wished they hadn't!

Some people will buy a bike without for financial reasons, others because they say they truely see no advantage, some don't like the added "complications" of ABS brakes.

I am an advocate for riding according to the prevailing conditions but to say that ABS as an aid to further safety is rendered unneccessary by this approach is just wrong!

 

[Le singe]

Where is the limit to 'further safety'?
Are you a friend of Peter Bottomley?

 

[MikeP]

Where is the limit to 'further safety'?
Are you a friend of Peter Bottomley?

If you are making a reference to "Nany State", like most people, I'd agree there is a limit but your point is misdirected!

I take it then that you'd prefer rear-wheel only brakes and no suspension?

Luddite!

 

[Le singe]

I'm waiting for the one piece of information,pro-ABS,that sends me to my BM dealer to rid myself of my non-ABS bike suddenly aware that all the time I have been riding it accident-free,has been purely luck and not based on perception and ability gained from years of experience on the road and racing.
When you consider the speeds that can be achieved on the roads in England,doesn't it bother you that people can't stop safely without electronic or mechanical aids?
I never use the back brake,the BM is stable enough to scrub-off speed even when leant over without a problem,the harder you use the front brake,the less you are able to use the rear,as I'm sure you know.
It's like the car scenario,if all cars were fitted with a box at the drivers head height,which fired a bolt through the drivers head if he caused an accident,do you think drivers would drive more recklessly or more carefully?
Do Volvo drivers drive more stupidly because they have an increased chance of injury if they cause an accident,or because they know they are almost totally safe coccooned in their re-inforced box?
Honestly speaking,has there never been a time on your ABS-equipped bike where you have approached a hazard faster than you would have done had the bike not been equipped with ABS,'safe'in the knowledge that the ABS will 'save' you?

 

[Tsiklonaut]

Honestly speaking,has there never been a time on your ABS-equipped bike where you have approached a hazard faster than you would have done had the bike not been equipped with ABS,'safe'in the knowledge that the ABS will 'save' you? [/B]

Very complicated text for non-native english speaker. You mean to tell the ABS is bullshit then and doesn't save anyone?

Thrn why the hell they do ABS models and why the hell i'm still alive? I have few good examples how it has saved me and many how it has saved the bike.

I don't think ABS dudes somehow drive faster than non-ABS dudes or start braking later on GSes... ABS just increases the probability factor on saving you or the bike from crashing. Sure nothing is ideal. But why not to take those extra points for your "self insurance" rather to miss them? Or broken bones or dead body is less expensive than the ABS unit, not worth it, eh?

Mo

 

[Le singe]

Your earlier reply,where you told the fog instance,only agrees with what I wrote ealier,if you had been travelling more slowly in those conditions,you would not have needed the ABS.
ABS replaces ability.
Take the argument to it's extreme,if you were pushing your bike along the road,how many times would you need ABS?
If you rode everywhere at twice the speed limit,would you be less likely to meet borderline braking situations,or more likely?
It's interesting that ABS is seen as a necessary safety feature by some riders,yet we also have numerous threads about system failures,worrying!

 

[MikeP]

It's like the car scenario,if all cars were fitted with a box at the drivers head height,which fired a bolt through the drivers head if he caused an accident,do you think drivers would drive more recklessly or more carefully?

Specious argument! No-one is suggesting that it be law to have ABS fitted. (My argument is that it is difficult to justify not having ABS when it is offered because it is an aid to safety).

Do Volvo drivers drive more stupidly because they have an increased chance of injury if they cause an accident,or because they know they are almost totally safe coccooned in their re-inforced box?

There is some evidence that advances in safety actually have a short-term detrimental effect. Witness the increase in road collisions after the introduction of the requirement to wear seat-belts in the front of cars in 1982. It is similar to the ovloV effect.

Honestly speaking,has there never been a time on your ABS-equipped bike where you have approached a hazard faster than you would have done had the bike not been equipped with ABS,'safe'in the knowledge that the ABS will 'save' you?

That's a loaded question. I certainly have confidence to use my brakes more effectively in wet conditions (I maybe the worlds worst motorcyclist but what ABS has taught me is that I never got anywhere near using the brakes effectively in wet conditions for fear of locking up, it is very difficult to get the ABS working in normal wet braking conditions) but I do not ride thinking that I can travel faster because I have ABS. I have approached hazards too fast but that is because I have misread the circumstances or made an assumption about another road users behaviour. I cannot say that in any such situation ABS has made a difference but it might. That makes it worthwhile.

 

[MikeP]

It's interesting that ABS is seen as a necessary safety feature by some riders,yet we also have numerous threads about system failures,worrying!

You are beginning to sound suspiciously like Dr.ABS or Oprah_Hazard!

Are you a ringer?

 

[Tsiklonaut]

Good point, but if the failure is, the two red lights flash on the instruments bar, you hardly miss them. Even if somehow the ABS unit fails without warning, as far as i'm concerned the brakes work like non-ABS brakes then (at least on non-integral ABS 1100GS model like mine). Most braking issue crashes are because of brake failures are indeed water or air in brakelines - basic brakesystem hydraulics making them non operational, coz owner hasn't been very much care-taking on replacing the fluids at least once per two years or checking leaks. That goes to all the bikes, wheather it has ABS or not. Thus sure I don't see basic ABS unit as "worrying" point here, and i haven't heard yet anything about on-ride-ABS-failure crash incidens though(?) Dunno about the integral-ABS hydraulics though...

Mo

It's interesting that ABS is seen as a necessary safety feature by some riders,yet we also have numerous threads about system failures,worrying! [/B]

 

[Deleted account 220427002]

Le singe you are assuming that people are using ABS for “evil” going faster taking more chances.
I don’t think that is correct the vast majority I would think use it for “good”.
I don’t think that ABS is going to corrupt me into going faster than on a non-ABS bike.
Anyone who would ride with “ABS is going to save me” in mind would be a fool and he would likely do the same foolish things to get himself in danger with or without ABS.

A like for like test in braking would be the best way to judge ABS.
So with that in mind….
Le singe you’re given an ABS version of the bike you have now, would you then tell me you could not stop quicker in the wet, than you could have on your non-ABS model?
Your answer will tell you the advantage of ABS

ABS gives us with less than your prefect ability to judge all road conditions a little more of a safety cushion.

Tell me one last thing why (if not for money reasons or doing loads of off road) would you not have ABS?

 

[Le singe]

This discussion could go on for ever,BMW fortunately,enable all of us to buy to suit our needs.
I rode a bike with ABS before I chose to buy one without,I do not ride off road as I'm convinced every hole/large stone has my name on it!
I did not like the feel of the ABS when it came in,I prefer to feel the front tyre working and adjust braking accordingly.If the front wheel locks in the wet,I release the brake and re-apply,just the same as ABS.I also believe having ABS will slowy reduce my ability to 'feel' what is happening.
If I have any doubts about conditions,I slow down further,to me,ABS does nothing that slowing down more can't do.
I am not a riding God,just experienced,did the motorcycle accident rate fall immediately after the introduction of ABS?
How did we manage before it was introduced? We learnt the hard way on our mopeds/250's.
If the opinion is that just slowing down a bit is not enough,perhaps it should be considered that the present road conditions are just too dangerous for a bike.
I'm concerned that you feel anyone who considers that they have no need for ABS must be a riding God.
Perhaps there is a widening gulf between those who can ride competently without aids and those who can't.