"Bricks" were sometimes referred to as "flat fours"; albeit they're in-line flat fours rather than the Goldwing, VW, Porsche, Subaru, Rotax, Citroën GS, Alfasud.....(any others?) boxer flat four.
Yup ... I guess they were Mike
Positioning
- Thread starter Giles
- Start date
Yup ... I guess they were Mike
What are you're on? Is it available on prescription? I'd like some please
BMW don't make a flat four ... VW and Porsche did
'Hanging off spurts bikes ..." FFS ?????????
Oh sorry... the FFS police again, ahem.
"Flat fours" as in horizontal fours or "Bricks" rather than the new K12's which are neither..... and..... "hanging off" or should I say "moving around"(obviously not PB or Fast Bikes style!
) a sports bike in order to balance the bike better and mean it leans less for the same corner speed. I know as I used to do this with no danger to any puppies, small children or myself. The only people offended possibly being "trained personnel" still on their R80RT's and sensitive members of the IAM/Rospa (If I was out on a Sunday...
)I don't move about my GS as it doesn't feel right and BM's are usually arse on the seat bikes. It is worth remembering that many of us have very similar experience and knowledge but a very differing amount of badges.
Pics for reference... The road on the bike one is rather cambered and is included 'cos I like it
...PS Like your avatar, have you thought of doing a sticker...
Attachments
Oh, you meant "Hanging off sports bikes", but you said "Hanging off spurts bikes"
I just wondered how hanging off a bike spurted it
Helluva camber there mate, good piccie .... taken at Brooklands
I just wondered how hanging off a bike spurted it
Helluva camber there mate, good piccie .... taken at Brooklands
Oh, you meant "Hanging off sports bikes", but you said "Hanging off spurts bikes"
I just wondered how hanging off a bike spurted it
Helluva camber there mate, good piccie .... taken at Brooklands
Ha, ha, ha....
Geddit now. I am still laughing over the "comments" thread over us blokes crapping on about riding skillsBeen trying to find my Cadwell pic of why to remove engine bars for track days...
I'm trying to knock up a couple of video clips for an overtakng thread, and was out yesteday.
One of the burning issues that has come up in this positioning thread in particular has been the reluctance by some advanced bods to go back to basics and keep things simple. Remember we spoke about a dry line and how often, the riders that had gone on to do further training would tip toe near side / off side and not really see the bigger picture..?
Its 2 degrees. Tyres are cold, the road is covered in salt and slime and there's still the odd patch of snow in the hedge row. After we get past the Yaris (overtaking thread in the pipe line..!) look how we abandon our fancy lines for good old fashioned dry line grip .....
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One of the burning issues that has come up in this positioning thread in particular has been the reluctance by some advanced bods to go back to basics and keep things simple. Remember we spoke about a dry line and how often, the riders that had gone on to do further training would tip toe near side / off side and not really see the bigger picture..?
Its 2 degrees. Tyres are cold, the road is covered in salt and slime and there's still the odd patch of snow in the hedge row. After we get past the Yaris (overtaking thread in the pipe line..!) look how we abandon our fancy lines for good old fashioned dry line grip .....
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Seems OK to me
Any more thoughts on left handers ?
Incident yesterday has got me thinking and interested in hearing people 's views.
C road, 40 mph, high hedges, fairly tight short left hand band that you can't see through and going from flat to downhill which you also can't anticipate. very quiet roads - haven't see another vehicle for a few minutes. Not safe to offside due to limited forward vision and narrowness of road so out to the edge of my side and turn in on smooth constant radius that will move towards apex and finish bend also back out towards right hand edge of my carriageway ( position3 if you into that )
As soon as I am in the bend there is a transit van coming towards me almost filling his carriageway followed by another car. I am on a radius which takes initially towards then away from him. We both keep to our side of the road but I can see him jump and swerve slightly and I have a catch of breath, involuntary throttle close but lean a little more and we pass safely with a a few feet in between.
I used to fumigate on this thinking how the devil is it that i can ride for ages and not see a car and than at the very half second when I most don't need to see one there he is ? guess now I am now thinking that it isn't a conspiracy but a natural consequence of having your forward vision shut off for several seconds by a bend.
Somewhere else on here we discussed long left handers and the pros and cons of keeping a wide line. this is different - its a sharp blind left hander that s over in a moment.
What concerns me is the small margin of safety in these situations - a few feet of miscalculation by me, an idiot in a car ( or bike!) off siding on a blind bend, a nasty change in road surface leading to the front end going would be all it takes for a lights out head on event. You ride hundreds and hundreds of bends without incident and then every so often one of these slight heart stoppers occurs - which in a way is a good thing to remind you about keeping sensible safety margins.
Hope you don't mind my ramble. Does anyone have this occasional issue with blind left handers and is able to share any useful advice or how they deal with the mental aspects of it ?
Incident yesterday has got me thinking and interested in hearing people 's views.
C road, 40 mph, high hedges, fairly tight short left hand band that you can't see through and going from flat to downhill which you also can't anticipate. very quiet roads - haven't see another vehicle for a few minutes. Not safe to offside due to limited forward vision and narrowness of road so out to the edge of my side and turn in on smooth constant radius that will move towards apex and finish bend also back out towards right hand edge of my carriageway ( position3 if you into that )
As soon as I am in the bend there is a transit van coming towards me almost filling his carriageway followed by another car. I am on a radius which takes initially towards then away from him. We both keep to our side of the road but I can see him jump and swerve slightly and I have a catch of breath, involuntary throttle close but lean a little more and we pass safely with a a few feet in between.
I used to fumigate on this thinking how the devil is it that i can ride for ages and not see a car and than at the very half second when I most don't need to see one there he is ? guess now I am now thinking that it isn't a conspiracy but a natural consequence of having your forward vision shut off for several seconds by a bend.
Somewhere else on here we discussed long left handers and the pros and cons of keeping a wide line. this is different - its a sharp blind left hander that s over in a moment.
What concerns me is the small margin of safety in these situations - a few feet of miscalculation by me, an idiot in a car ( or bike!) off siding on a blind bend, a nasty change in road surface leading to the front end going would be all it takes for a lights out head on event. You ride hundreds and hundreds of bends without incident and then every so often one of these slight heart stoppers occurs - which in a way is a good thing to remind you about keeping sensible safety margins.
Hope you don't mind my ramble. Does anyone have this occasional issue with blind left handers and is able to share any useful advice or how they deal with the mental aspects of it ?
If there is no carriageway marking, the whole width is mine to use to improve the view.
Yes, you have to move further to a position of safety but the earlier warning that you have by being fully on the offside offsets this.
Oncoming vehicles get to see you earlier too. They may over-react but the added reaction time is to their benefit and therefore yours as well.
This can be a real killer as well, More Lean + Closed Throttle is a real good way of losing the front, I have been trying hard for about 15 years to lose this nasty habbit but it still happens from time to time (normally in same cicumstances as above) I rarely chop the throttle because I think I have entered a bend too fast these days, maybe in another 15 years I will have lost this SR altogether!
DA1ES
Registered user
previously mentioned phrases such as what can you see what cant you see come to mind, maybe not the most exciting way to ride but i always expect the unexpected.
the fact that you realised it was a blind bend early on may have started the alarm bells ringing and told you that taking an extreme right hand position may lead to some possible conflict. never bursting your safety bubble also comes to mind.
40mph c road, some may also argue that extreme positioning is not neccessary.
the good thing is you had the ability to deal with it and walk away and learn from it.
as for dealing with the mental issues, copious amounts of beer usually helps.
but hey im no expert
the fact that you realised it was a blind bend early on may have started the alarm bells ringing and told you that taking an extreme right hand position may lead to some possible conflict. never bursting your safety bubble also comes to mind.
40mph c road, some may also argue that extreme positioning is not neccessary.
the good thing is you had the ability to deal with it and walk away and learn from it.
as for dealing with the mental issues, copious amounts of beer usually helps.
but hey im no expert
phooey
Registered user
With 'closed' bends you don't know what is just out of your vision around it. Road surface or road user.
I go in thinking ' What's the worst reasonably predictable scenario that might pop into view from beyond my VP' and adjust my speed and my position to give me the ability to deal with it safely should it arise.
In slow - around safe - out fast.
May seem a ball ache but closed bends demand self discipline and restraint, particularly if you tend to have a bit of a progressive temprament.
I go in thinking ' What's the worst reasonably predictable scenario that might pop into view from beyond my VP' and adjust my speed and my position to give me the ability to deal with it safely should it arise.
In slow - around safe - out fast.
May seem a ball ache but closed bends demand self discipline and restraint, particularly if you tend to have a bit of a progressive temprament.
For me, it goes back to that sort of (sorry any military blokes out there...) squaddie like mentality of 'Ive been told, so this is what I do..'. Black and white. 
I still see, (occasionally) some of guys I work with go sailing into a left hand bend, a car comes into view and they have to abruptly change course back to the nearside, and the oncoming drivers eyes are on stalks. Not often to be fair, but it still happens from time to time, and it drives me nuts!
"Why were you there??"
"To see into the bend"
"But it's completely blind, and the road is narrow, and you're doing 60mph, an oncoming car doing say 50, thats a closing speed of 110 mph!! For what, three or four feet of vision? Why do it? It was of absolutely no benefit to you what so ever!"
"But that's what we do, we approach left handers from the off side, that's what we were taught...".
To me, having received all that training, they commit the sin of not taking their knowledge to the next, higher, masters degree, of applying flexibility, experience, adaptability, to different scenarios. There seems to be a need sometimes, to over egg the pudding, rather than paradoxically, being smarter, by being simpler.
Don't get me wrong - I'll use the whole road if it warrants it, drag my panier in the off side hedge!! .. but it's that test ...it's almost like JAPAN 'ing it ... is it justified, appropriate, proportionate, necessary .....?
Will I benefit, or am I potentially putting myself on offer, for, two,three feet of extra vision.......?
I hear what you say about being on your side of the road, and not being out for a view.
There's a nasty bend near me that is a crested left hander. Oncoming traffic are faced with a crested right hander and it naturally pulls them onto their off side. Contrary to all the positioning rules, I've learned to go round this one hugging the kerb !!
I still see, (occasionally) some of guys I work with go sailing into a left hand bend, a car comes into view and they have to abruptly change course back to the nearside, and the oncoming drivers eyes are on stalks. Not often to be fair, but it still happens from time to time, and it drives me nuts!
"Why were you there??"
"To see into the bend"
"But it's completely blind, and the road is narrow, and you're doing 60mph, an oncoming car doing say 50, thats a closing speed of 110 mph!! For what, three or four feet of vision? Why do it? It was of absolutely no benefit to you what so ever!"
"But that's what we do, we approach left handers from the off side, that's what we were taught...".
To me, having received all that training, they commit the sin of not taking their knowledge to the next, higher, masters degree, of applying flexibility, experience, adaptability, to different scenarios. There seems to be a need sometimes, to over egg the pudding, rather than paradoxically, being smarter, by being simpler.
Don't get me wrong - I'll use the whole road if it warrants it, drag my panier in the off side hedge!! .. but it's that test ...it's almost like JAPAN 'ing it ... is it justified, appropriate, proportionate, necessary .....?
Will I benefit, or am I potentially putting myself on offer, for, two,three feet of extra vision.......?
I hear what you say about being on your side of the road, and not being out for a view.
There's a nasty bend near me that is a crested left hander. Oncoming traffic are faced with a crested right hander and it naturally pulls them onto their off side. Contrary to all the positioning rules, I've learned to go round this one hugging the kerb !!
And here it is !!
Traffic travelling in the direction you see, cut this corner. Coming from the other direction, the safest place to be is well tucked in. That's smarter than the squaddie mentality of 'Ahhh ... left hand bend, so I'll do what I've been taught and keep out for a view...'.
Imagine yourself as a car driver and picture a bike suddenly appearing, on the right side of the road, but 12" inside the hazard warning line
!!!!
mr badger
Registered user
There's a similar bend to that on the way to Southwold. Always creep round it after a near head on with a car overtaking several bicycles while cornering left.
Well speaking as an ex-squaddie and an ex-copper, I'm wondering where this idea of yours comes from. I was taught that positioning for a left-hand bend was for "view and stability".....
and that the "view" is always sacrificed for safety.Imagine yourself as a car driver and picture a bike suddenly appearing, on the right side of the road, but 12" inside the hazard warning line
There has never been any rule that "this is a such-and-such bend, I must be positioned here or there". It has always been my experience that positioning is dependent upon all the prevailing conditions. That may include 'local knowledge' (as in your example) but that said, if your speed is such that you cannot safely alter your position you have got 'feature six, the degree of acceleration to clear the hazard' (or the 'A' of IPSGA in the modern parlance) wrong.
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I couldn't agree with you more
But too many 'trained' riders seem to view it this way, and lack flexibility and common sense in their riding.
You must have hung around too many thick infanteers.
Those of us with more than half a brain cell can think for ourselves just as well, if not better than the average flatfoot.
I just have to say how fascinating this thread is, Its thought provoking, amusing, annoying (depending on the various contributors!) and enlightening..
learning a lot from it, thanks..
learning a lot from it, thanks..
I've seen many "observed" riders who do this but no "trained" riders (if they did, they wouldn't have passed the training and therefore wouldn't be classified as "trained").But too many 'trained' riders seem to view it this way, and lack flexibility and common sense in their riding.
Your local IAM group must have far higher standards than the ones I've seen.I've seen many "observed" riders who do this but no "trained" riders (if they did, they wouldn't have passed the training and therefore wouldn't be classified as "trained").
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