Power Commander , Remap, or other...

[Wilsdorf]

In order to have an open discussion rather than have all comments interpreted as being aimed at anyone one, or a particular company, I'd like to discuss the benefits of each 'tuning' option for the GS.

What have you tried, and what was the outcome/benefit?

I've tried both Remap, and a power commander (but not auto tune etc. - both have provided smoother running. What does one provide over the other, and what does auto tune add to the PC?

Any other options tried? Lennies, porting, gas flowing - any extreme tuning?

 

[tanneman]

To be honest, haven't tried any performance optimization tuning on the GSA. The best thing about the PC is the ability to remove it when the bike is sold and so you can recuperate some of your money lost to playing with the thing. Lennies gives you better drive at the bottom but you lose some at the top end of the rpm range. If you seriously want to increase the performance of the thing then try this. Would make a good project. Or you can buy the new GS, that is a totally different bike.

 

[Wilsdorf]

That looks awesome - I'll have to look at some further tests on it, and see who had one - expensive, but 22bhp increase and I expect lots more torque from an additional 100cc

Max are quoting an average 10-11 bhp from their remap, I wonder how that compares to a full on power commander set up? No doubt the PC would be more expensive though and maybe not have the same gain.

 

[Deleted account 190920001]

Another option that I see guys use in the states are lc1 wideband sensors. These have the advantage that you can offset the reading therefore making the original ecu think the fueling is different to what it really is. The ones that do it swear by it but it's not really a cheap option.
Personally I have a PCV that I bought secondhand and have the generic decat map on it. I haven't bothered to connect the quickshift or gear position up yet but I might do it over the winter just for fun. I have used a wideband and recorded the output then did a fairly minor change to the map just to smooth out and fill in the dead band at the 4500 area a little more. I have built and installed megasquirts into cars and one bike so I am used to looking at maps/live data and having a fiddle. If you were interested in the ultimate fine tune you could add the auto tune at a large cost or get a dyno session at lesser cost. All in it has cost me £130 so a good result for the cost.

 

[Wilsdorf]

£130 sounds like good value.

I paid about the same for my PC-V, but as my twin cam has been remapped, there doesn't seem much point, and possibly no benefit in adding the PC - it's set up for my currently standard, but updated factory map R12S, which I'd like to get dyno'd and set up as best as possible this year.

Is a full PC and auto tune etc a good alternative to a remap, or would the remap provide the best benefit? Or does that come down to whether or not the bike is used in the same conditions, i.e Altitude/heat?

 

[miked]

Wilsdorf, didn't see this before my last post on the other thread.
My apologies.

 

[Wilsdorf]

Wilsdorf, didn't see this before my last post on the other thread.
My apologies.

No worries

I really am only interested in the different options available and at the best cost.

Cheers

 

[Deleted account 190920001]

To me the PCV is great if you like to fiddle ie you can do the exhaust and put that map on then the airfilter and move onto serious tuning if you like. You can get more involved with it. If all you want to do is get rid of the inherent weak mixture problem and it is convenient for you then a remap might be the best route to take. Of course a remap can cope with all sorts of changes as well from mild to wild but obviously it's outside of the DIY scope. As said above though you will get money back on the PCV if you move on so it could turn out the cheaper option especially if you buy used in the first place.

 

[Sgt Bilco]

I've mentioned this before but I went the PC 111 route on my 2006 GSA. I do a big mileage and lead groups in the USA so I have specific needs for my steed. I'm also a lazy rider and like low down power and have no interest in revving the tits off the bike although I consider myself a fast road rider.

Second hand PC111 and a set up on a dyno cost £250 all in and the bike rides beautifully with smooth fuelling across the range and oodles of torque low down where I want it. It produces similar power and torque to a TC and people who have ridden it comment on how smooth and effortless it is to ride even though it's now done 103,000 miles. I run with decatted Keihan headers and an American PCP can.

I did consider the remap but I didn't think it would give me my specific needs and it was basically £350 up the wazoo whether it worked or not. With the power commander, I can change things if I want to and the surprising benefit is a better mpg.

 

[DrAlf]

I've mentioned this before but I went the PC 111 route on my 2006 GSA. I do a big mileage and lead groups in the USA so I have specific needs for my steed. I'm also a lazy rider and like low down power and have no interest in revving the tits off the bike although I consider myself a fast road rider.

Second hand PC111 and a set up on a dyno cost £250 all in and the bike rides beautifully with smooth fuelling across the range and oodles of torque low down where I want it. It produces similar power and torque to a TC and people who have ridden it comment on how smooth and effortless it is to ride even though it's now done 103,000 miles. I run with decatted Keihan headers and an American PCP can.

I did consider the remap but I didn't think it would give me my specific needs and it was basically £350 up the wazoo whether it worked or not. With the power commander, I can change things if I want to and the surprising benefit is a better mpg.

Interesting Bilks. I had a PC3 fitted previously with good results until it started it fail intermittently and then finally catastrophically. It was a right bugger to troubleshoot and drove me insane until it finally failed altogether. For RTW or hardcore travel use I would have thought that a remap would be the better option or even a BB chip etc. Less to go wrong and less wires to break.

 

[Deleted account 190920001]

I should add to my spiel that I don't really consider the auto tune as a viable option. Its an aid to tune and nothing more really, once you're dialed in you no longer really need it and two of them that are needed for the GS isn't cheap. If there is a group of you all going the PCV rout then get one set between you and run it on all the different bikes to get tuned in otherwise if you feel you need it then go get a dyno tune. Lots of places up and down the country deal with dynojet kit.

 

[Mistacat]

These are only my experiences make of them what you will.
Autotune & PCV on 09 R1200gs.
15 K miles with autotune still getting varied readings would not automatically accept all trims without editing them.
Would not use autotune on 2%, 5%, & 10% columns, These small throttle openings at higher speeds on mountain descents are beyond the understanding of autotune. It can only calculate engine load by RPM vs throttle position (TP).
The Innovate LC1 used to correct fueling is not as precise as the power commander.
The innovate LC1 with an air fuel ratio (AFR) meter on the handlebars and a net-book in the top box is my preferred method.
I put white tape on the twist grip and a pointer on the bars then mark off the throttle positions on the tape using either the PCV or GS911 hooked up to the net-book.

This way I can observe AFR vs RPM vs TP on the move or data log it and study it later.
This way I can map the PCV to suit my riding style and true road conditions.
This is not a commercially viable method. i just like tinkering.
Over the years I have used the Innovate LC1 to tune everything from Airheads ( built a gadget to read CD carb piston height so as to see where to mod needles) to 4 Barrel carbs on V8`s.
The majority of my riding when 2 up touring with luggage is at 20% throttle (this surprised me) averaging 54 mpg.
I have only done 34K miles on this bike so far but I am happy with my settings. And BHP ? not interested.
Again Just my thoughts and findings.

 

[Wilsdorf]

Thanks Sgt Bilko - much appreciated and informative. Have you had any issues with the PC? We had an issue when in torrential rain (worst I can remember) but it was fairly easily fixed and waterproofed at a service station - but then you appear to cover a few more miles than most.

We tend to hold our bikes at full throttle in a number of places when out for a weekend ride, when traffic/conditions permit of course. So really would use the upper end of the rev range for most of our unrestricted riding. But when going on a tour and covering distance I'd very rarely be revving the tits of it - although there were a few almost perfect roads in Spain on the way to the Aragon race this year that benefited from high revs and spirited riding I understand that you can have a "switchable" map, is that the right word, that would allow for performance, or economy - which would be appealing.

Autotune
Ah, ok so the autotune is really just to set up the PC as efficiently as possible for the bike?

I was thinking that the PC may be the better route if you were slowly adding bits to the bike - standard, then decat, then end can etc. - or trying out different end cans (if one was too loud etc.). As there are different maps for different options. For example there is a map for a Akra full system, or a different map for a Remus downpipe and Akra end can, amongst many many others. All our bikes have differing exhaust set up on them now , so the PC was looking appealing - and I have one in the garage anyway for the R12S.

In contrast I thought the remap may be limited to the final dyno run and the map put in place, but reading other posts it seems that it is possible for the remapped map to adapt to certain applications, within reason - is that right, anyone have a clear understanding of how that works?

 

[Wilsdorf]

These are only my experiences make of them what you will.
Autotune & PCV on 09 R1200gs.
15 K miles with autotune still getting varied readings would not automatically accept all trims without editing them.
Would not use autotune on 2%, 5%, & 10% columns, These small throttle openings at higher speeds on mountain descents are beyond the understanding of autotune. It can only calculate engine load by RPM vs throttle position (TP).
The Innovate LC1 used to correct fueling is not as precise as the power commander.
The innovate LC1 with an air fuel ratio (AFR) meter on the handlebars and a net-book in the top box is my preferred method.
I put white tape on the twist grip and a pointer on the bars then mark off the throttle positions on the tape using either the PCV or GS911 hooked up to the net-book.

This way I can observe AFR vs RPM vs TP on the move or data log it and study it later.
This way I can map the PCV to suit my riding style and true road conditions.
This is not a commercially viable method. i just like tinkering.
Over the years I have used the Innovate LC1 to tune everything from Airheads ( built a gadget to read CD carb piston height so as to see where to mod needles) to 4 Barrel carbs on V8`s.
The majority of my riding when 2 up touring with luggage is at 20% throttle (this surprised me) averaging 54 mpg.
I have only done 34K miles on this bike so far but I am happy with my settings. And BHP ? not interested.
Again Just my thoughts and findings.

Likewise I'm not really interested too much in the BHP/torque figures - I'm only really interested in the performance in use. Maybe the GS isn't the right bike - but when you love the looks, handling and practicality etc. it's difficult to look elsewhere for what is just a quicker bike but with more compromise. That's why I bought the R12S - I can't fit comfortably on a sportsbike anymore, the R12s is more like a VFR in the comfort stakes - I tried a S1000RR for size, and sat on the Aprilia RSV - I'm sure they were smaller (or at least felt it) than the FZR400 I had as a teenager!

 

[Big Lee]

Of all the bikes I`ve fiddled with re exhausts, remaps, header changes, air filters none, imo, have felt like the money has been worth the spend on them. When I`ve changed them back to oe before selling them the difference has been a better feeling motorbike as standard.
The best money I`ve spent on bikes has been improvements to the suspension

YMMV

 

[Wilsdorf]

That is a very good point - and a lot of members have extolled the virtues of upgraded suspension.

From my perspective, I found the 04 bike suspension far too woolly. The single cam 08/09 bike was much better - but has ESA, and my twin cam has ESA too. I find the suspension quite good to be honest, and I ride maybe 50/50 one up/two up - so the ability to change between the settings at the press of a button is very convenient for me (I know Ohlins and Wilbers now allow that too). My R12S has ohlins and they do feel good, and it handles well - but I haven't tried the non-Ohlins version.

I'd certainly consider upgrading, but not until the standard stock shocks had a lot more miles on them.

 

[Wilsdorf]

I note that Geoff at Hilltop, has offered existing/previous customers £100 off a remap on a new bike - which I think would tip the balance for a lot of people in favour of the remap over the PC/techclusion options.

 

[Delboy777]

I've been quoted a price of £470 too supply, fit and do a custom map on a Dyno using PCV by my local Dynojet guy. How does that compare with other prices.?

Sent from my SM-T210 using Tapatalk

 

[Big Lee]

Bloody hell!! What actually does £470 get you on a normally aspirated bike??

 

[Deleted account 211025001]

Bloody hell!! What actually does £470 get you on a normally aspirated bike??

Er, what makes you think it's 'normally aspirated'?

I've an '05 single cam with shortened air intake, wide bore Bos headers and can and a 2nd hand Wunderlich fuel controller. The controller is set to the reccomended settings for that combination.

Smoother low down with a bit more grunt, removes the flat spot at just below 5k and at 5.2k picks up it's skirt and flies; that's where the biggest difference seems to be and it hits the limiter far too quickly
I did have a K&N filter for a bit but it was replaced by the normal paper element prior to a trip to Maroc and I've carried on using standard filters since as I could feel no difference.

I had an issue with one of the connectors to the TPS and replaced both with WMB ones, no other problems before or since and all very easy to put back to standard should I want to.

All in all a cheap mod with significant improvemants. I wouldn't bother with a remap or PCV as I don't believe the extra cost would reap much further improvement.

As mentioned in the other thread I'm hoping to get my TE630 Husky up to Hilttop, initially to see what it's doing on the dyno and then possibly go for a custom remap if he feels he can improve low down throttle response and give me a fatter midrange.

Oh, and as already mentioned, in terms of outright performance and getting from A to B quicker then quality suspension is the way to go IMHO - far more effective than an engine tune

Andres