Without trawling back through this thread- I was sure that Wilsdorf ran a remapped SC bike alongside an un-altered TC bike - and found there to be little if no difference?
Al
Remap by Hilltop Motorcycles
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Without trawling back through this thread- I was sure that Wilsdorf ran a remapped SC bike alongside an un-altered TC bike - and found there to be little if no difference?
Al
I had my 2010 remapped at hilltop.Their dyno printout showed typical bhp/torque increases.the power/torque delivery was better but no way a 30% increase in figures.there was an improvement,so I'm not disputing the worth of the upgrade but I'm with wilsdorf on the actual figures.i don't know how or why but my arse dyno is the one I trust
More like double that....http://www.dynojet.co.uk/index.php/power-commander-v/auto-tune
But you don't need the Autotune kit if you set it up on a dyno. Basic PC V is less the £300 and a decent dyno place like BSD are not that expensive by the hour. I think the price is similar and you get £150 back when you sell the bike/ kit ...
And all the associated hardware/connectors that can go wrong and explain to your insurance company.... I wouldn't be surprised if a remapped bike gets its money back when sold especially when you can show a prospective new owner the dyno graphs to prove it. Just my opinion of course
I like to live dangerously... I think you'll find that most folk would actually avoid a Hilltopped bike as they haven't been designed to take a 25% increase in power - think of the extra strain on the cycle parts... asking for trouble
I like to live dangerously... I think you'll find that most folk would actually avoid a Hilltopped bike as they haven't been designed to take a 25% increase in power - think of the extra strain on the cycle parts... asking for trouble
But of course they won't believe the power gains anyway but will be comforted to know that the engine hasn't been running dangerously lean all those years. Plus, they won't be concerned about fitting all the other bits and bobs peeps add to their beasts as a matter of course i.e cans, headers, air filters etc etc. I think I could sell it
But of course they won't believe the power gains anyway but will be comforted to know that the engine hasn't been running dangerously lean all those years. Plus, they won't be concerned about fitting all the other bits and bobs peeps add to their beasts as a matter of course i.e cans, headers, air filters etc etc. I think I could sell it
Ha ha don't believe everything Geoff tells you. Do you really think the bikes are 'dangerously lean' as standard ? - where are all the 'my bike has just gone pop for no reason' threads ?
When it comes to selling, perception is king
Yep you're right - look at the impact some dodgy dyno graphs can make
I've been amazed at how long this thread has been going.
I certainly don't intend to wade through all 50 or so pages, but at a quick glance isn't it a case that after the re-map, the bikes only deliver on the dyno what the manufacturer claims ?
I do know one chap who went up there, & after the first run Geoff asked "Have you owned this bike from new"?
"Not exactly" was the reply "It's an ex-demo bike. Why?"
Geoff explained that it was running spot on, & that he couldn't in all honesty take any money, so he gave the owner the dyno print out as a souvenir & no bill.
As for Ape's contribution. Aren't you the chap who was interested in a re-map, but had your doubts, so Geoff offered you a cast iron "if you don't like the result, don't pay" guarantee?
Why didn't you take him up on it, then we could all learn from your experience, good or bad ?
I certainly don't intend to wade through all 50 or so pages, but at a quick glance isn't it a case that after the re-map, the bikes only deliver on the dyno what the manufacturer claims ?
I do know one chap who went up there, & after the first run Geoff asked "Have you owned this bike from new"?
"Not exactly" was the reply "It's an ex-demo bike. Why?"
Geoff explained that it was running spot on, & that he couldn't in all honesty take any money, so he gave the owner the dyno print out as a souvenir & no bill.
As for Ape's contribution. Aren't you the chap who was interested in a re-map, but had your doubts, so Geoff offered you a cast iron "if you don't like the result, don't pay" guarantee?
Why didn't you take him up on it, then we could all learn from your experience, good or bad ?
I am a firm believer in remaps / PCs and the (limited) benefits they offer. A remap makes perfect sense on a single cam - I am not convinced its worth the outlay on a twin cam which has better fuelling out of the box. I have had tuning and dyno work done on previous GSs with the smoother power outcome mentioned on numerous posts above.
However my personal view - and this is a general discussion so I'm entitled to say this - I think the graphs are misleading at best and have been used to sell this service. So out of principal I won't be going there any time soon. Sorry but I don't like being taken in even if there is still some positive outcome.
I'm sorry, what? I've proved everything I need to, to myself, my family and riding friends - we have swapped bikes, carried out the same straight line through the gear runs. I don't need a dyno, I'm not trying to disprove anything or anyone. I am simply stating that I have an opinion on a particular matter, and if that helps someone make up their mind, then so be it.
The comment above on Geoff not charging. Great - so a used bike probably had a previous remap. Not so unlikely is it? I'm glad he didn't charge. & if Geoff didn't do the remap, as you would think his records would have that bike noted, then someone else's remap is just as good.
Look I've said all along, remap may be the best option for you. If it is then go for it. There are other options and other providers. What made Hilltop stand out to me were there power increases (which my dyno sheets also show), so I'd say one of my bikes is typical of others on the forum.
If you want a remap, get a remap, if you want a PC buy a PC, if you want a booster plug, buy a booster plug.
Why is there so much effort by one or two people to try and close down an open discussion on this?
There seems to some confusion here about the relationship between power, torque, acceleration, speed and general in-gear performance. I remember reading a piece in Bike magazine where two Yamaha R6s were compared: one standard and the other retuned to give a more responsive midrange at the expense of a big drop (about 20% if I remember right) and on a blind test almost every test rider preferred the low power version and thought it was faster. My conclusion is not that the figures lie, but that the translation into how the bike feels in everyday use is complex. If someone has posted properly benchmarked performance figures for speed and acceleration before and after, alongside the power and torque graphs, I've managed to miss these.
I go with the seat-of-the-pants assessment, if it feels faster that's good enough for me. As another, maybe useless, comparison I have owned several bikes of circa 200kg and 100bhp, and the GS is, by the SOTP assessment, the slowest but the only one I could ever enjoy riding all day and I wouldn't swap back for any of my earlier faster bikes.
I go with the seat-of-the-pants assessment, if it feels faster that's good enough for me. As another, maybe useless, comparison I have owned several bikes of circa 200kg and 100bhp, and the GS is, by the SOTP assessment, the slowest but the only one I could ever enjoy riding all day and I wouldn't swap back for any of my earlier faster bikes.
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I had my doubts on the remap and made a last minute decision to have mine done a 2012 tc well worth it to me the dyno graphs show one of 2 things the bike was well under powered from the factory due to fueling or they graphs are not correct but the bike does go well now so I dont care either way
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Remapped TC, against an unmapped TC, and against a standard SC. We then put a power commander on my old Single Cam with an exhaust and the Single Cam was quicker. Bearing in mind, I bought the TC, as the old man on his Twin Cam used to start the mountain mile behind me, and then glide past my bike, not by much, but enough - so I owned both the SC and the TC at the same time. After the PC on the Single Cam the bike was then quicker than a bike that used to glide past it. By contrast, my Twin Cam is the same as the other Twin Cam, the other bike does not glide past it on a straight, but the single cam with PC has the edge. Granted there is not much in it, and the faster rider is more than enough to make the difference on a complete ride out. In fact he is quicker on our 2004 GS, but that is not the point lol.
The dyno figures are a similar increase to a 2000 CBR600 putting out the same power as a 2000 Fireblade, and the CBR still being the same speed in a straightline as a standard bike.
So we had a standard twin cam, that was a little quicker than standard single cam. I then bought a new twin cam and had it remapped. The two twin cams were quicker than the single cam, by a v small margin, maybe gearing and a few horse power, as you would expect. However on adding a PC and full exhaust to the single cam, the single cam was quicker. We carried out multiple runs, and between us we still own all the bikes and have 5 GS' and a few other BMW twins, and have ridden BMW twins since I can remember.
Those are just my experiences, yours my vary.
One last point I'd make to be clear, and Im not defending Geoff or Hilltop in stating this, it's just fact - Geoff never made any power claims to me. The only area I, in my personal opinion doubt, and I am entitled to doubt whatever I like, is the increase in bhp and torque that the dyno charts show, and how this translate to on road performance.
Why would I pay for a dyno of my bike? What would this prove? It would only show what the bike produces now. It would not show whether or not the increase on the dyno charts I have in my sticky mitts was accurate, and therefore it is of no value in this discussion whatsoever - especially as it would be statistically invalid against Geoff's remaps and dyno runs (was it 375 GS's?).
If we get a chance this TT week, we will run a few of the GS's on the same dyno, on the same day and see what differences are between them.
There is no confusion. These graphs show an increase across the whole rev range - there is no moving of the power curve to a particular point.
I'll say it again - the remap, may be the best option for you. It may even have been the best option for me - but my bike after the remap does not have the PERFORMANCE that I believe any sane experienced rider who has ridden bikes on and off track for years would expect.
So... My comments and opinion on the Hilltop remap are:
If you want the bike to run smoother and possibly have your fuelling optimised for your bike, then consider the remap - I doubt you would be disappointed and there are more than a few happy customers.
However, if you are considering it for the power and performance benefits that most if the graphs posted on here show, then I personally wouldn't bother, as we got more performance from a standard, previously slower Single Cam, with a 2nd hand power commander, with a downloaded map and no dyno time.
It's your money and your choice. I am just posting to give anyone that wants to read the benefit of my/our experiences.
I had my 2012 GS TC done by Geoff last year. I got it done purely for the improvement in low speed throttle response as at the time I was commuting into the city centre and the jerky throttle was far from pleasant. I had no desires for an increase in torque or BHP, but wouldn't turn them down if they were a side effect of the remap. Also of concern to me was the vibrations coming through the bike.
Geoff stuck it on the dyno before the remap and showed it to be producing 77 BHP and 57 lbft. He commented that it was the worst he'd seen. After the remap the dyno showed 100.32 BHP and 80 lbft.
The first thing I thought when riding it back home was that there was no way those figures could be correct. It simply didn't feel any quicker at all, and a 30% increase in BHP combined with a 40% increase in torque should definitely be noticeable. What I did notice though was that there was far less vibration and the slow speed stuff was much nicer which was the reason for having the remap done. I've since ridden other standard GSs and had other people ride mine. That amount of power/torque should be obvious and yet none of us have been able to tell any difference in pure performance terms. We have all, however, noticed the improvement when at slow speed. This also includes people who weren't told the bike was remapped before they rode it.
Geoff stuck it on the dyno before the remap and showed it to be producing 77 BHP and 57 lbft. He commented that it was the worst he'd seen. After the remap the dyno showed 100.32 BHP and 80 lbft.
The first thing I thought when riding it back home was that there was no way those figures could be correct. It simply didn't feel any quicker at all, and a 30% increase in BHP combined with a 40% increase in torque should definitely be noticeable. What I did notice though was that there was far less vibration and the slow speed stuff was much nicer which was the reason for having the remap done. I've since ridden other standard GSs and had other people ride mine. That amount of power/torque should be obvious and yet none of us have been able to tell any difference in pure performance terms. We have all, however, noticed the improvement when at slow speed. This also includes people who weren't told the bike was remapped before they rode it.
- So, would I believe the dyno charts and claimed improvement in power/torque? No way.
- Did it make it smoother and more controllable at low speed? Absolutely.
- Would I have it done again? No, probably not.
- Why didn't I take it back for a refund? The slow speed stuff did make my commute much nicer and I'd have happily paid £150 for that. The 200 mile round trip didn't appeal (it was winter and actually started snowing half way home from having the remap done). I then had medical issues and didn't ride for over 6 months. I now no longer own the bike as I took delivery of the R1200RT 2 weeks ago. I wasn't UNhappy with the remap, just not as blown away as I'd liked to have been having read all about it before having it done.
- Am I interested in getting a bit more power out of the RT? Yes. It's a bit down on power and heavier compared to the GS. I'd like just a smidge more power, mainly for overtaking. I do, however, think the slow speed stuff is much better out of the box than the GS was and I'm not sure why.
- Who am I going to use to sort out the RT? No idea. Still looking around. Don't want to go down the PC route as I'd rather not have another box of tricks one the bike that I'd need to hide/explain.
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Thank you for that informative post daesimps, which perfectly reflects my own experiences, and is generally in line with my opinion of the remap.
Humbug
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In the good old days 
the best way to make a bike feel faster was to oil the throttle cable and polish the seat!
the best way to make a bike feel faster was to oil the throttle cable and polish the seat! 
This was exactly what I wanted for my TC.... I wasn't interested in dyno charts and in fact was considering sending the ECU by post to save on the expense of my travel and a stop-over from Northern Ireland.
I'm not big on technology and was aware of power commanders.... I had discounted this route as too complicated and too expensive for 'MY' needs.
Until now I was not aware of a thing called an 'accelerator module', but have noted on a different thread that they are only 50 Euro and even 'I' should be able to fit one.
Quote below from the other thread...........
If I honestly believed the re-map would give my bike an increase of 20% or more bhp or torque, I would seriously consider it at £350 plus travel expenses, but after following this thread, I don't.
I did consider getting it done just for the chance to smooth out the engine and make it run more like BMW designed it to run.
But thanks to Wilsdorf and a few others for sharing their opinions and experiences on here, I think the 50 Euro accelerator module will do for now.
If I change my mind, I can always flog it.
And when someone with more cash than me has their own bike tested on a dyno before and after a re-map and dis-proves the “Emperor's New Clothes” theory, I will probably go for the re-map!
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