StooL
Registered user
sproggy said:
Is this not the jumper setting that Steptoes mod is based upon?
I'm now confused and my head hurts...these CCP's will be the death of me!
Is this not the jumper setting that Steptoes mod is based upon?
I'm now confused and my head hurts...these CCP's will be the death of me!
100WattWarlock
Guest
Well this is all great info, but I think I can rest my case (presented earlier) that these are great bikes, but they do seem to have a lot of electronics in 'em!
All I wanted to do was fit a flipping exhaust and Y piece to make the bike a bit lighter, and bit louder (for safety reasons you understand)....
Now I'm mucking about with chips and things..... Grrrr!
I am now truly lost and have no idea what anyone is going on about, and think I might just put the Y-piece etc. back on E-Bay.
Pooo! Very fed up now.
All I wanted to do was fit a flipping exhaust and Y piece to make the bike a bit lighter, and bit louder (for safety reasons you understand)....
Now I'm mucking about with chips and things..... Grrrr!
I am now truly lost and have no idea what anyone is going on about, and think I might just put the Y-piece etc. back on E-Bay.
Pooo! Very fed up now.
StooL
Registered user
LOL
Why don't you fit your exhaust and y-piece and steptoes mod then get the bike dyno tested. It should only cost about £20 and then you'll know if all is well.
Even better.....dyno it with and without steptoes mod and post the results.
Why don't you fit your exhaust and y-piece and steptoes mod then get the bike dyno tested. It should only cost about £20 and then you'll know if all is well.
Even better.....dyno it with and without steptoes mod and post the results.
StooL
Registered user
cookie said:
Sproggy, please tell us if this is the CCP that the "experienced dealer" fitted. If it was then I'm not sure if I'm going to laugh or cry.
OK, here it is. Yellow/Gold CCP. Made by Tyco, their part number possibly V25134-Z1314.
It has a BMW roundel moulded into it, and the part number 61.36-8 366 282 - the same as Cookie quoted. Pins 30 and 87 used.
StooL, yes, this is what the dealer fitted. If it was intended for the standard exhaust and cat why would they have fitted it early last year when the bike had been running around for 3 years already with.....nothing/something different? I'd heard that an olive green CCP is standard - is that true? If the bike had the yellow one as standard then everyone should have one, shouldn't they, fitted in the factory? Go and check under your seats!
100WattWarlock, this does not really consititute complicated electronics, and there is no mucking about with chips involved - the CCP is simply a means of connecting one termincal to another - no electronics involved.
The BB jumper settings are intended for use with the BB chip - I wouldn't recommend to anyone that they try them with the standard chip but each to his own as far as experimentation is concerned! I think Steptoe reported that fuel consumption got worse when using the BB jumper settings and standard chip, while with the chip fitted it's actually improved (from 43mpg to 45mpg) despite my taking advantage of the extra performace. But that's another issue.....
StooL, I agree that there is a difference in performance between the stock and Remus cans. Clearly BMW fit the restritive standard one for noise reasons, pure and simple. There's no question that it restricts performance a bit, but the cat restricts it more. Therefore if you were to change only one component it should be the cat rather than the can.
A cat requires a fairly lean mixture if it is to survive without damage to its active compounds. Removing it allows the bike to run a richer mixture without fear of damage and this tends to provide a more responsive power delivery. Unless removing the cat actually makes the bike run leaner (as opposed to ALLOWING it to run richer), which it might since the exhaust will be scavenging more efficiently, it could be argued that no CCP changes would be required unless you wanted to take full advantage of the cat having been removed. Only comparitive dyno runs would show the mixture with/without the cat.
Complicated innit?
It has a BMW roundel moulded into it, and the part number 61.36-8 366 282 - the same as Cookie quoted. Pins 30 and 87 used.
StooL, yes, this is what the dealer fitted. If it was intended for the standard exhaust and cat why would they have fitted it early last year when the bike had been running around for 3 years already with.....nothing/something different? I'd heard that an olive green CCP is standard - is that true? If the bike had the yellow one as standard then everyone should have one, shouldn't they, fitted in the factory? Go and check under your seats!
100WattWarlock, this does not really consititute complicated electronics, and there is no mucking about with chips involved - the CCP is simply a means of connecting one termincal to another - no electronics involved.
The BB jumper settings are intended for use with the BB chip - I wouldn't recommend to anyone that they try them with the standard chip but each to his own as far as experimentation is concerned! I think Steptoe reported that fuel consumption got worse when using the BB jumper settings and standard chip, while with the chip fitted it's actually improved (from 43mpg to 45mpg) despite my taking advantage of the extra performace. But that's another issue.....
StooL, I agree that there is a difference in performance between the stock and Remus cans. Clearly BMW fit the restritive standard one for noise reasons, pure and simple. There's no question that it restricts performance a bit, but the cat restricts it more. Therefore if you were to change only one component it should be the cat rather than the can.
A cat requires a fairly lean mixture if it is to survive without damage to its active compounds. Removing it allows the bike to run a richer mixture without fear of damage and this tends to provide a more responsive power delivery. Unless removing the cat actually makes the bike run leaner (as opposed to ALLOWING it to run richer), which it might since the exhaust will be scavenging more efficiently, it could be argued that no CCP changes would be required unless you wanted to take full advantage of the cat having been removed. Only comparitive dyno runs would show the mixture with/without the cat.
Complicated innit?
sproggy said:
why indeed?
dealers
code plug
Standard fitment on my 2001 GS.
It was on the bike when I bought it new.
I think they have been pulling your plonker Sproggy.
Standard fitment on my 2001 GS.
It was on the bike when I bought it new.
I think they have been pulling your plonker Sproggy.
Le singe
Guest
On previous discussions about CCP's,I got pulled apart for stating that what works for one bike doesn't necessary work for the next one,due to manufacturing tolerances,etc.
The 'Steptoe' link made my 1100,(when it was in standard tune),run worse.
The correct advice is to get it on a dyno and set up for your requirements.
It's like asking someone to tell you what size main jet your modified engine needs,you may get a ball-park number,but the dyno should always be your next port of call.
The 'Steptoe' link made my 1100,(when it was in standard tune),run worse.
The correct advice is to get it on a dyno and set up for your requirements.
It's like asking someone to tell you what size main jet your modified engine needs,you may get a ball-park number,but the dyno should always be your next port of call.
some come from the factory with that CCP fitted, others have nothing.
StooL
Registered user
So, after all that we're no further forward. I thought Sproggy had some new info but it seems as though the "experienced dealer" has indeed been "pulling his plonker".
Le singe said:
correct me if i'm wrong here, but isn't the steptoe link just for 1150s?
Le singe
Guest
When it was first shown,some 1100 owners were trying it,so being ever curious,I tried it on mine.
If nothing else it showed the variances between different models.
As you're aware,a lot of people are hunting for the 'This works perfectly for everything solution'.
If nothing else it showed the variances between different models.
As you're aware,a lot of people are hunting for the 'This works perfectly for everything solution'.
Le singe
Guest
Cookie,I think the inference earlier,by Steptoe,was that it worked for all.
In earlier discussions with him on here,when I raised the point about differences in bike tolerances,set-ups,etc,he didn't say,'Hold on,this is just for 1150's'.
If it wasn't for 1100's,it's certainly kept a few owners busy
In earlier discussions with him on here,when I raised the point about differences in bike tolerances,set-ups,etc,he didn't say,'Hold on,this is just for 1150's'.
If it wasn't for 1100's,it's certainly kept a few owners busy
Re: code plug
Why would they? I didn't own the bike when the CCP was fitted. In any case they didn't charge the previous owner (the CCP is shown on the invoice as FOC) and what would they have to gain by telling me that it was the correct one for the Remus exhaust when it's already fitted?
It appears that there's still some differences of opinion in this respect but I don't believe that I've been intentionally deceived.
Has anyone contacted Remus and asked their opinion? Or BMW UK?
Rightly so in this case, I would have thought!
Does each GS out of the factory get a custom mapping to suit its particular engine clearances etc? No - BMW produced a mapping that worked for all of them within certain tolerances. Is there any reason to believe, therefore, that fitting a 'standard' aftermarket exhaust (Remus Revolution and Y) and adjusting the fuelling with a 'standard' fix in the form of a CCP would be any worse?
Some standard bikes run better than others. That's manufacturing tolerances for you, not to mention running in procedures, oil, fuel, etc. Similar variations would be expected around a Remus/CCP combination but there's no reason to suspect that any would be outside of accepted tolerances any more than a standard bike would.
Sure, in most cases correct setup/mapping would optimise the bike's performance (as it would on any bike) compared to just bunging in a CCP to adjust the fuelling but it shouldn't be needed any more or less than it is on a factory standard bike. Unless, of course, there are modifications other than the exhaust - air filter, intake duct, etc. And how do you map each bike individually unless you have a Teclusion unit fitted?
The BB chip has several fixed mappings to suit particular combinations of modifications. I haven't heard anyone claim that that's an inappropriate solution. It may not be 100% perfect for every bike but again it's within acceptable tolerances. And as far as I know there's no facility to custom-map it even if a dyno run showed that the fuelling was slightly out in some places.
Kenny Rodkiss said:
Why would they? I didn't own the bike when the CCP was fitted. In any case they didn't charge the previous owner (the CCP is shown on the invoice as FOC) and what would they have to gain by telling me that it was the correct one for the Remus exhaust when it's already fitted?
It appears that there's still some differences of opinion in this respect but I don't believe that I've been intentionally deceived.
Has anyone contacted Remus and asked their opinion? Or BMW UK?
Le singe said:
Rightly so in this case, I would have thought!
Does each GS out of the factory get a custom mapping to suit its particular engine clearances etc? No - BMW produced a mapping that worked for all of them within certain tolerances. Is there any reason to believe, therefore, that fitting a 'standard' aftermarket exhaust (Remus Revolution and Y) and adjusting the fuelling with a 'standard' fix in the form of a CCP would be any worse?
Some standard bikes run better than others. That's manufacturing tolerances for you, not to mention running in procedures, oil, fuel, etc. Similar variations would be expected around a Remus/CCP combination but there's no reason to suspect that any would be outside of accepted tolerances any more than a standard bike would.
Sure, in most cases correct setup/mapping would optimise the bike's performance (as it would on any bike) compared to just bunging in a CCP to adjust the fuelling but it shouldn't be needed any more or less than it is on a factory standard bike. Unless, of course, there are modifications other than the exhaust - air filter, intake duct, etc. And how do you map each bike individually unless you have a Teclusion unit fitted?
The BB chip has several fixed mappings to suit particular combinations of modifications. I haven't heard anyone claim that that's an inappropriate solution. It may not be 100% perfect for every bike but again it's within acceptable tolerances. And as far as I know there's no facility to custom-map it even if a dyno run showed that the fuelling was slightly out in some places.
Re: Re: code plug
i don't think installing the CCP for a cat & std. can is going to make it any better myself.
i don't think you've been intentionally deceived, but i do think that the bmw dealer in question got it wrong.
i reckon you're spot on there
i know i've said this many times before, but what we need to do is find out what the steptoe link actually does. bmw aren't saying.
sproggy said:
i don't think installing the CCP for a cat & std. can is going to make it any better myself.
i don't think you've been intentionally deceived, but i do think that the bmw dealer in question got it wrong.
sproggy said:
i reckon you're spot on there
i know i've said this many times before, but what we need to do is find out what the steptoe link actually does. bmw aren't saying.
Le singe said:
Always said it was just for 1150's -
all i did was try all the different links, on different bikes over a long period of time - and always kept coming back to the link i posted.
the set up is there on all the bikes, but no one had bothered to try different links.
So i did, it was there for anyone else to try, but no one else bothered, and now everybodys getting their knickers in a twist -
Just fit the Y piece and can, and leave the standard link as it is - thousands of bike out there running perfectly normal without any problems - i'm only talking about 1150's
Always kept 1100 standard, more basic, but you can adjust the mixture with the CO pot -
I have my '02 1150 booked in for a dyno test next Monday. I have recently fitted the 'Steptoe link' in a bid to cure some pinking, so far it seems to have worked, the plugs look ok too.
My bike is single spark ignition, fitted with Y piece, standard can, and K&N air filter, yellow CCP removed, and I did the ignition off, remove fuse 5 thing as well. It still pops and farts a bit occassionally on the overun, but I think the joint between Y piece and can needs a bit more tightening.
I had the bike dyno tested a couple of months back after fitting the Y piece and K&N; at low throttle openings it was running a bit lean, but was told nothing to worry about, at higher and full throttle it was as near perfect as possible without fine tuning with a Power Commander. Power was 78 BHP, and 74lbsft torque.
I will post results ASAP next Monday. Cheers for now, Fatal.
My bike is single spark ignition, fitted with Y piece, standard can, and K&N air filter, yellow CCP removed, and I did the ignition off, remove fuse 5 thing as well. It still pops and farts a bit occassionally on the overun, but I think the joint between Y piece and can needs a bit more tightening.
I had the bike dyno tested a couple of months back after fitting the Y piece and K&N; at low throttle openings it was running a bit lean, but was told nothing to worry about, at higher and full throttle it was as near perfect as possible without fine tuning with a Power Commander. Power was 78 BHP, and 74lbsft torque.
I will post results ASAP next Monday. Cheers for now, Fatal.
Le singe
Guest
I've spoken to BMW via a technician here in France and have been given all the relevant information,plus,a friend of a friend is involved in the design of injection systems,he's worked on the Petronas project plus the Sagem systems fitted to the Triumph range.
He's explained in detail how every sensor gives information to the Motronic plus the options for deceiving the Motronic and hence changing the fuelling.
As regards tolerances,no BMW don't map each bike individually,but some bikes will run closer to the limits of a certain map than others,as one owner has seen with a holed piston,and others have found that no changes are necessary.
I've modified my airbox,fitted higher-comp pistons,different cams,etc,I'm running no CCP,all the sensors are standard 1100 fitment,after a few electronic 'tweaks' the fuelling is now O.K. throughout the range.
All the coding plug does.....I've said all this before.....
He's explained in detail how every sensor gives information to the Motronic plus the options for deceiving the Motronic and hence changing the fuelling.
As regards tolerances,no BMW don't map each bike individually,but some bikes will run closer to the limits of a certain map than others,as one owner has seen with a holed piston,and others have found that no changes are necessary.
I've modified my airbox,fitted higher-comp pistons,different cams,etc,I'm running no CCP,all the sensors are standard 1100 fitment,after a few electronic 'tweaks' the fuelling is now O.K. throughout the range.
All the coding plug does.....I've said all this before.....
Le singe said:
How did you do that? AFAIK the standard ECU doesn't allow re-mapping so presumably you used a Teclusion or similar? This is the main problem - that it's not easy to tailor the mapping to suit individual bikes.
And what's all the information that your friend gave you - please share it!
What's the truth about CCP's?
Le singe
Guest
You're right, you can't re-map the Motronic.
It contains about 8 different factory-programmed maps,which each CCP can access,for example,CCP 1 accesses map 1,CCP 2 accesses map 2.
The Steptoe link just accesses a different map,which may or may not be more accurate for your bike with it's mods.
It is possible to select a map which is very close to your requirements and richen the fuelling further by convincing the Motronic that the engine is running colder than it is.
Unfortunately any mods run right through the range,it is not possible to alter fuelling between,say,4K - 5K rpm in isolation.
The point is,the system is very crude,you'll probably only get ball-park,but this can be better than too lean/rich.
The CCP changes are not magic,they just access different maps.
A Techlusion is the best solution,even this has only relatively crude adjustments,but when it's all that is available.....
You could always rip the whole lot out and go to programmable ignition and carbs,which is a project for this winter!
It contains about 8 different factory-programmed maps,which each CCP can access,for example,CCP 1 accesses map 1,CCP 2 accesses map 2.
The Steptoe link just accesses a different map,which may or may not be more accurate for your bike with it's mods.
It is possible to select a map which is very close to your requirements and richen the fuelling further by convincing the Motronic that the engine is running colder than it is.
Unfortunately any mods run right through the range,it is not possible to alter fuelling between,say,4K - 5K rpm in isolation.
The point is,the system is very crude,you'll probably only get ball-park,but this can be better than too lean/rich.
The CCP changes are not magic,they just access different maps.
A Techlusion is the best solution,even this has only relatively crude adjustments,but when it's all that is available.....
You could always rip the whole lot out and go to programmable ignition and carbs,which is a project for this winter!
Similar threads
