Replacing internal fuel pump with external facet version?

[Fanum]

Has anyone tried to go down the route of replacing the internal fuel pump with a Facet external equivalent?

I'm seriously considering replacing my internal fuel pump with one.....plus an adjustable pressure regulator (3-5 bar) in addition to the external fuel filter I've run for years.

An external pump is about 30 quid as opposed to 70-80 for a non-valeo version or up to £300 for an OEM one, and a fuel pressure regulator (a total bastard to replace in its original position ) WITH a gauge is about 20 quid as opposed to £40-£70 plus for an OEM version from a K1200RS running at 3.5 bar (or the GSA version running at 3 bar)


Advantages.......it's all external, easily accessible, piece of piss to maintain, clean, fit and tweak.......it gives a tiny bit more fuel capacity (but that's minor) and getting into the tank, although easy enough, is a bit of an operation as well.

I'm thinking I could use the existing pipework in and out of the tank, take the original wiring from the multiplug to the new external one (I've already changed the 4 way plug to 2x2 way plugs so half that job is already done) and just leave the wiring for the level sensor in the tank....it would actually make the sensor a lot easier to squeeze back in as well, involving (theoretically at least, though I've only used two o rings in 5 tank-offs this month) new o rings in QD's, fuel filler cap, pump access plate etc etc


Disadvantages.......Not many , apart from mounting it and re-plumbing the tubes (I've done a fair bit of that though, using 8mm ID steel braided tubing already)

I'm surprised I've not seen a thread about anyone doing it already....I've had so many problems with the fuel system and the regulator/splitter is the one and only part I haven't replaced yet, but it's either a serious job or what Steptoe describes as 'very, VERY fiddly' to replace the FPR without raising the subframe.

Can anyone see any obvious problems I might run into?

(I'm considering removing the ABS unit to mount the facet pump, a primary filter and so on, and using a nylon sock filter dangling in the bottom of the tank as the intake)

 

[DrFarkoff]

Don't need to raise subframe just raise battery box!

Audi pump .....> http://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/CarParts/tabid/144/ProductID/1749/Default.aspx

Why have high pressure components subject to excessive vibration and hoses that can chaffe

At present Normal set up is an Insy hose and an Outsy hose and a thru case power supply all contained on that flange

Really is it so much hassle to change the fuel filter every 24,000 and the Audi filter offsets the value of the Dealer replacement nicely

 

[Fanum]

Don't need to raise subframe just raise battery box!

Audi pump .....> http://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/CarParts/tabid/144/ProductID/1749/Default.aspx

Why have high pressure components subject to excessive vibration and hoses that can chaffe

At present Normal set up is an Insy hose and an Outsy hose and a thru case power supply all contained on that flange

Really is it so much hassle to change the fuel filter every 24,000 and the Audi filter offsets the value of the Dealer replacement nicely

I've changed my filter 4 times this year already, trying to clear out the shit that evidently gathered up while the bike was dry for a year.....fortunately, the filter was re-mounted outside many years ago so that has been a 3 minute job each time, otherwise, yes, it would have been a PITA.

I did buy that Audi/VW pump, but once you've got it delivered, it's well over 50 quid, and that particular one has electrical poles made of some sort of flaky cheese.....DAMHIK

( I was able to put a nut over the broken pole, then another one on top of that with just enough meat on the thread to stick a crimp connector into, but frankly, the cheap ones are cheap, full stop)

The regulator is in the wankiest place that they could possibly site it....it's worse to get to than the bloody clutch master cylinder.......I've had a good old poke around with 'just lowering' the battery box, but seriously, you have to take the throttle body off, both cables (so you have to re-balance the bodies, ok, only a 5 minute job now I've done it a dozen times but it all still adds up) and even then, I have serious doubts I could wrangle the FPR out of that slot

This bike is a keeper......and I really begrudge paying BMW prices for parts that are 1/5th of the price is positioned differently, so I'm looking to the long term and trying to see if I can re-jig things.

I also use this bike ........I know I can get a simple facet pump from anywhere in the world, and if I had it mounted externally, I could replace it in ten mins flat......an internal one to spec is a different matter......same for the pressure regulator/splitter.....any shop, universal part, ten minutes to undo some fuel pipe clamps, bish bosh bang.


BMW have made it a whole deal more complicated (and expensive) than it needs to be.....I'm on a mission to reverse that

PS I use steel braided PTFE pipe......you would have a problem chafing that with your best bastard file

 

[uncle dick]

The aftermarket pressure regs with gauge are great for the chav market but, in my experience, unreliable. When did anyone on here have a problem with the oe one? I'd also be wary of using braided ptfe hoses. Unless you're using the proper fittings everywhere they can be a bugger to seal and when you clamp them to work on the system you can split the liner.

With the above provisos, the external set-up sounds fine, especially with your history of contaminated fuel.

 

[CPL]

Properly, and safely carried out, these external pump/filter mods seem like a good idea to me, but in view of some recent events, Im going to play "Devil's Advocate" and I'd like to know if my pessimism is warranted.

The pump and filter are Designed to be inside the tank, where any leak, or blow out in the pressurised connections will just blow fuel safely round the tank and cause the bike to stop. However, a good friend recently had the filter blow off a few days after it was serviced recently by a respected, experienced mechanic, used by many boxer owners and a member of this forum has just had the same thing happen.

If either one of the two pressurised connections failled outside the tank, on the outside lane of a motorway, (as happened when my friends filter blew off) the hard shoulder might look a long way away with your legs and those of your passenger on fire and unless the flames burn out before the fuel tank gets hot, the chances of being able to put a fire out even when on the stand aren't great, because the heat would then pressurise the tank and feed the flames like it does in a Tilley lamp.

finally, if a fire caused someone to be injured in an accident due to such modifications.... I doubt whether ANY UK insurer would cover it and if their inspector found out, (even if the police RTI examiner didnt) they'd probably show you as being uninsured at the time of the accident and the little time saved by the modification could theoretically lose you your license in the event of an "uninsured loss" claim

 

[Fanum]

Couple of points to address there....

I've had PTFE cored fuel pipe on for a year or so, I've used in in an industrial capacity for a good few years and have never had a problem, albeit that was with bleaches and various other nasty chemicals rather than fuel......I've definitely not had any leaks on the bike with the stuff I've had on so far though, although I can understand fully that PTFE/steel braided pipe could be damaged by someone using it for the first time

Erm....fire, from a leaking fuel line?

Would that come from the same book that led all the petrol companies to insist that we can't use mobile phones on garage forecourts because they cause explosions?

Rob Farmer and I managed to empty out half a tank of petrol all over a very hot engine and exhausts......ok, we panicked at the time, but it didn't 'do a Hollywood' on us.

You can squirt as much petrol on an exhaust as you like......it won't ignite unless it's provided with an ignition source (spark, flame) or if it gets above 280c.

I'm not the slightest bit worried about an external pump causing a risk......the majority of supercars have external (to the fuel tank) fuel pumps...I'm even less worried by the insurance implications too

Thanks for the concern, but let's get it in perspective.....on a bog-standard GS, there is a rubber fuel line going to a high pressure plastic (steel mesh reinforced) fuel line before it goes into the fuel pressure regulator......that's just pushed over the plastic, and clamped on with a fuel pipe clamp.....not as well connected as what i'm proposing to do to mine.

The High pressure (40-43psi) reinforced plastic lines to the fuel injectors themselves are purely push-fit onto plastic barbed 8mm connectors.....not even a clamp used there!

Any external fittings/connections I'll make will be PTFE onto metal barbs, clamped and tested.

 

[ducatiparts.110mb]

Sounds like a bloody good idea to me. Can you stick some pics up when you're done.

I have my filter in the space left by the abs pump, but didn't think about the doing pump too.

 

[CPL]

Firstly, The mobile phone quip was Both deliberately insulting and uncalled for.... I'm not some pen-pushing, health and safety prat... But I have spent 38 years building and modifying motorcycles and designing and building plant and machinery for industry... Both of them professionally at various times in my carreer and although I may not have the in depth knowledge of BMWs that many in here have, Ive experienced enough accidental ignitions to know what a fuel leak can do.....

I dont deliberately set out to hack people off, although I could rip many ideas to bits if I wanted, but most ideas involve little, or no risk, so I don't. and if what I say contradicts the views, or plans of others its unfortunate, but having spent a great deal of time over the last 38 years clearing up after people who havent recognised the possible ramifications when they attempt to "improve" specifications decided upon by very clever, experienced, highly educated, hugely respected Development teams, I think it's only fair to highlight possible negatives when I see them and it would be irresponsible for anyone else who notices a previously unmentioned potential hazard to keep quiet rather than risk hurting someone's feelings.

Any public forum has a moral duty to ensure that POTENTIALLY risky procedures advocated by any member are highlighted as such so as not to encourage less capable individuals to attempt modifications beyond their capabilities.

As I said... The idea is good... You personally might know exactly what you're doing and be fully competent to ensure that you're not Introducing any potential risk, but any six fingered, three eared, brainless moron could read this thread and kill himself, or someone else by trying to emulate your improvements using crap materials and gaffer tape.. (people like that really do exist)

Just because you poored petrol on one hot bike without doing a Guy Martin, it doesn't follow that you can squirt atomised fuel over one any time you want with impunity... With a flashpoint of -45F (the point at which petrolium liquid becomes petrolium vapour) the tiniest spark from a loose chipping being thrown up and hitting a steel bolt (just 1 millisecond at 1200C) or a minute flash from a dirty relay terminal could ignite it and anyone who's ever seen header pipes glowing dull red, or used them to light a cigarette will argue most strongly over the likelihood of there being zero possibility of ignition... Sorry, but that's how it is... Mobile phone or not...

 

[Madmountainman]

It's just Bill, he's mad as a box of frogs and his engineering skills usually involve anything from zero maintenance to whacking it with a bloomin gurt big 'ammer!

 

[ducatiparts.110mb]

But I have spent 38 years building and modifying motorcycles and designing and building plant and machinery for industry

The trouble with lines like this is that in 12 months time you have to go back and edit it to say 39 years, and then a year after that.......

I lost interest in reading the rest of your post.

 

[Tattiebogle]

The trouble with lines like this is that in 12 months time you have to go back and edit it to say 39 years, and then a year after that.......

All posts are time and date stamped, but you knew that before posting, didn't you?

 

[bowser]

I would be really greatfull if you post the results of this as I think its a cracking idea, I was thinking of somthing similar, have you had a look at the Honda Varadero 1000, it has an external fuel pump, now as with all things it about £200 but the same as one off of a honda car which is also external and only £40, but I have been looking at the rubber mount and the bracket it fits on to get ideas.

 

[Timolgra]

I would be really greatfull if you post the results of this as I think its a cracking idea, I was thinking of somthing similar, have you had a look at the Honda Varadero 1000, it has an external fuel pump, now as with all things it about £200 but the same as one off of a honda car which is also external and only £40, but I have been looking at the rubber mount and the bracket it fits on to get ideas.

Look on the AT forum, it's an age old problem with them also and Facet is the remedy.

No point with a GS though because they very, very rarely fail.
If it ain't broke.....

 

[ducatiparts.110mb]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiparts.110mb

The trouble with lines like this is that in 12 months time you have to go back and edit it to say 39 years, and then a year after that.......

All posts are time and date stamped, but you knew that before posting, didn't you?

I originally finished with "but you probably don't mind that, you pedantic tosser", but I deleted it because I looked in the left hand column and I see that he isn't a paid up tosser.

 

[Fanum]

No point with a GS though because they very, very rarely fail.
If it ain't broke.....

They do if some arsehole spray paints your tank without masking off the filler hole or the pump mounting plate hole

 

[Fanum]

I would be really greatfull if you post the results of this as I think its a cracking idea, I was thinking of somthing similar, have you had a look at the Honda Varadero 1000, it has an external fuel pump, now as with all things it about £200 but the same as one off of a honda car which is also external and only £40, but I have been looking at the rubber mount and the bracket it fits on to get ideas.

I'm going to do it.....even had a facet pump in my hands this morning. (fitting a long range second fuel tank of a FFRS destined for New Zealand)

I finally got around to ripping the bugger open to change the fuel pressure regulator today (and if anyone tells me it's possible to do it without swinging up the frame again, I'm going to have them shot for crimes against the truth )

I've replaced every single element of the fuel system now, and some parts several times over to try and sort out this contamination problem.....for now though, I'm going to standard everything to make sure I've solved it before I move on to change anything....The only change I've made was to put in a K1200RS regulator rather than a 3 bar GS one.

I can get multiple sizes of facet pumps on the same day here, and we have all the bits 'n' bobs to do the whole project (apart from a variable pressure regulator unit which are easy to get online) so it's definitely going to happen,. once I've sorted the problem

What a stupid place to have it

 

[Timolgra]

They do if some arsehole spray paints your tank without masking off the filler hole or the pump mounting plate hole

Seriously though, wouldn't you do best to pour a sealer into the tank if that's the case?

 

[Fanum]

Seriously though, wouldn't you do best to pour a sealer into the tank if that's the case?

I've cleaned it, flushed it, cleaned it and flushed it....all lines have been replaced or blown through, all components including pump,injectors (new) sock and regulator changed, several filter swaps have taken place and I'm back to an OEM filter (still external though so it's a 2 minute swap job)

Yes, next step will be to seal it with an epoxy of some sort if necessary, but if I don't have it on the road for the hograost, I'm going to lose my knackers

PS I smiled when I saw how much Morocco I'd smuggled out hidden away under that airbox

 

[Steptoe]

I finally got around to ripping the bugger open to change the fuel pressure regulator today (and if anyone tells me it's possible to do it without swinging up the frame again, I'm going to have them shot for crimes against the truth )

It is possible. And i haven't heard a bloke down the pub telling someone a mate of his uncles neighbour knew someone who did it.

I've done it with my very own hands.
It is very, very fiddly, more fiddling than gary glitter in a bangkok orphanage. And it can only be removed from the R/H side.

 

[Fanum]

It is possible. And i haven't heard a bloke down the pub telling someone a mate of his uncles neighbour knew someone who did it.

I've done it with my very own hands.
It is very, very fiddly, more fiddling than gary glitter in a bangkok orphanage. And it can only be removed from the R/H side.

On an ABS adventure?

I've already managed to kink the primary feed pipe to the regulator (hence the braided steel going up to the airbox bulkhead ) so although I'd read you'd done it but had described it as double fiddly, I thought bollox to that, I'm going in the back way


It's all good though......I found a dessicated finch wing that was oddly missing from the carcass of a suicidal dive bomb attack from said birdy 5 years ago