Route timing and average speeds - A glitch.

Wapping

Wapping

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This thread is carried over from the Travel section, in case anyone is interested or has a solution.

There seems to be a problem with Mapsource, route timing and average speeds.

Here is an example of a file. It has two routes, one green, the other magenta, both near enough starting and finishing in the same place. Two were created just to check the result.

In short, it calculates the distance (which is about right) as 168 miles but taking just 1 hour, 53 minutes and 40 seconds, which is near enough 84 mph average.

I have rechecked my pre-determined average speed settings:

67 motorways

58 major highways

45 other highways

35 on collector roads

25 on residential streets

So it should be impossible to go over 67 mph in any average calculation of time.

There is one definite glitch. On the 'Green' route it gives stage 17 as:

17. Keep right towards The South/Birmingham 86.6 mi 53.7 mi 0:22:44 0:51:01 168° true N52 41.776 W2 06.310

If I read that right it is 53.7 miles in twenty two minutes and 44 seconds. Say, 150 mph average in round terms..... Excellent, if it's possible.......

I am using Mapsource NT 2009:1. I also re-ran it in earlier versions, with the same problem.

I have contacted Garmin, along with the route file, to see what they say.
 

Attachments

I imported your timing glitch route into Mapsource and confirmed that it said 1:53mins for the route time. Then pressed recalculate and it came came with 2:39mins.
My driving speeds are set lower than yours 65,45,35,30,20.
I'm running Mapsource 6.14.1.

After pressing recalculate on JA's it was showing 9 minutes not 11 seconds!

What are you guys taking or can you loan me the engine from your bikes so that I can go that fast!

John
 
beemerboy9 said:
I imported your timing glitch route into Mapsource and confirmed that it said 1:53mins for the route time. Then pressed recalculate and it came came with 2:39mins.
My driving speeds are set lower than yours 65,45,35,30,20.
I'm running Mapsource 6.14.1.

After pressing recalculate on JA's it was showing 9 minutes not 11 seconds!

What are you guys taking or can you loan me the engine from your bikes so that I can go that fast!

John
Click to expand...

OK. I guess you agree that if you put average speeds into Preferences in Mapsource, no individual section of a journey or the total journey can be calculated to be completed at an average speed higher than the average put in?

If so, walk me through this slowly, John.

Here are the comparative average speeds, put into Preferences. Mine and yours. To be honest, I simply took the average speeds in my column back to the Mapsource pre-sets in order to exclude a possible source of glitch, but it matters little.


67 Mapsource pre-set - Yours 65 motorways

58 Mapsource pre-set - Yours 45 major highways

45 Mapsource pre-set - Yours 35 other highways

35 Mapsource pre-set - Yours 30 on collector roads

25 Mapsource pre-set - Yours 20 on residential streets

I then reset (reduced) my average speeds to match yours and recalculated, just as you did.

Section 17 now comes out as:

17. Keep right towards The South/Birmingham 86.6 mi 53.7 mi 0:23:23 0:52:42 168° true N52 41.776 W2 06.310

That is:

Leg length: 53.7 miles

Leg time: 0:23:23

Let's call that 54 miles in 23 minutes.

In rough terms, that is an average speed of 137 miles an hour. How can the calculated average speed for that section of motorway be higher than 65?

Any ideas?

Let's then look at the total journey.

36. Cirencester1 168 mi 230 ft 0:00:30 1:58:31 52° true N51 43.093 W1 57.680

That is:

Distance: 168 miles

Time taken: 1 hour 58 minutes and 31 seconds. Let's call that two hours to do 168 miles.

Average speed: 84 mph

So we now have an average speed for the entire journey of 84 miles an hour, when the maximum average speed was pre-set at 65. How can that be?

Any ideas, other that you are running Mapsource 6.14.1 and I'm running Mapsource 6.15.3 - which is perhaps where the glitch lies?
 
Can I just suggest that you give Birmingham a wide berth at any average speed :thumb2
 
Just tried the Timing Glitch routes in MapSource 6.13.7 using CN Europe NT 2008. I have the same average speeds per road type set as Wapping. Here's a comparison of the steps where Wapping's calculated route differs significantly from mine. Note the average speeds:<html>

<table border="1">
<tr>
<th></th>
<th colspan="3">Wapping's Data</th>
<th colspan="3">st13phil's Data</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<th>Step</th>
<th>Leg Length</th>
<th>Leg Time</th>
<th>Leg MPH</th>
<th>Leg Length</th>
<th>Leg Time</th>
<th>Leg MPH</th>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>11</td>
<td>0.2 mi</td>
<td>00:00:10</td>
<td>72.0</td>
<td>0.2 mi</td>
<td>00:00:15</td>
<td>48.0</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>12</td>
<td>4.1 mi</td>
<td>00:03:41</td>
<td>66.8</td>
<td>4.0 mi</td>
<td>00:03:36</td>
<td>66.7</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>13</td>
<td>3.1 mi</td>
<td>00:02:43</td>
<td>68.5</td>
<td>3.1 mi</td>
<td>00:02:48</td>
<td>66.4</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>14</td>
<td>0.1 mi</td>
<td>00:00:07</td>
<td>51.4</td>
<td>0.1 mi</td>
<td>00:00:07</td>
<td>51.4</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>15</td>
<td>8.5 mi</td>
<td>00:06:07</td>
<td>83.4</td>
<td>8.5 mi</td>
<td>00:07:35</td>
<td>67.3</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>16</td>
<td>0.3 mi</td>
<td>00:00:17</td>
<td>63.5</td>
<td>0.3 mi</td>
<td>00:00:17</td>
<td>63.5</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>17</td>
<td>5.5 mi</td>
<td>00:04:54</td>
<td>67.3</td>
<td>5.5 mi</td>
<td>00:04:54</td>
<td>67.3</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>18</td>
<td>53.7 mi</td>
<td>00:22:24</td>
<td>143.8</td>
<td>53.7 mi</td>
<td>00:47:49</td>
<td>67.4</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>19</td>
<td>1.8 mi</td>
<td>00:01:39</td>
<td>65.5</td>
<td>1.8 mi</td>
<td>00:01:39</td>
<td>65.5</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>20</td>
<td>9.5 mi</td>
<td>00:07:42</td>
<td>74.0</td>
<td>9.5 mi</td>
<td>00:08:31</td>
<td>66.9</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>21</td>
<td>16.6 mi</td>
<td>00:15:04</td>
<td>66.1</td>
<td>16.6 mi</td>
<td>00:19:38</td>
<td>50.7</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>22</td>
<td>37.1 mi</td>
<td>00:24:16</td>
<td>91.7</td>
<td>37.1 mi</td>
<td>00:33:06</td>
<td>67.3</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>23</td>
<td>1.5 mi</td>
<td>00:01:23</td>
<td>65.1</td>
<td>1.5 mi</td>
<td>00:01:23</td>
<td>65.1</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>24</td>
<td>2.4 mi</td>
<td>00:02:13</td>
<td>65.0</td>
<td>2.4 mi</td>
<td>00:02:15</td>
<td>64.0</td>
</tr>
</table>

</html>BTW, perhaps someone with better knowledge of HTML than I can get rid of the whitespace above the table :blast
 
\the same for the M6 north of Manchester

Had a bit of a play and it's the same on the M6 north of Manchester going south or north bound :(

Playing around with the speeds does affect the total time, but still with big errors, so I'm confused now :confused:

Edit: M1, M40 and M4 also have the glitch :(
 

Attachments

st13phil said:
Just tried the Timing Glitch routes in MapSource 6.13.7 using CN Europe NT 2008. I have the same average speeds per road type set as Wapping. Here's a comparison of the steps where Wapping's calculated route differs significantly from mine. Note the average speeds.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. :thumb2

I was just about to run it in an earlier version, so you've saved me the trouble.

There's obviously some kind of roads (or stretches of roads) where Mapsource is not picking up the average speed settings given in Preferences. and / or not linking them to the road type properly.

The glitch seems to have been imported with 6.15.3. I have always found Mapsource pretty accurate before.

I will send your table off to Garmin as well as it illustrates the problem very clearly.
 
What happens if you download them to a GPS and then recalculate. I had this problem recently and when I recalculated it on the GPS it added 2 hours to the time (which was correct after this recalculation 6 hours 20 mins instead of 4 hours 20 mins).

I have another problem in that my GPS is telling me the next turn info almost every minute - even if the next turn is 100kms away - anyone else had this.

Lloyd.
 
LPB said:
(A) What happens if you download them to a GPS and then recalculate. I had this problem recently and when I recalculated it on the GPS it added 2 hours to the time (which was correct after this recalculation 6 hours 20 mins instead of 4 hours 20 mins).

(B) I have another problem in that my GPS is telling me the next turn info almost every minute - even if the next turn is 100kms away - anyone else had this.

Lloyd.
Click to expand...

(A) I haven't tried but it's easy enough to do, so I will. But, if the maps and software on the PC and the GPS device match, why would it need to recalculate the route at all? If it cures the problem it suggests that there is a difference between software on the PC and on the device (which there isn't in my case) or at least a difference in its operation on each.

I will also ask my Zumo to simply plot the same 'glitch' route and see what stage 17 gives me then.

(B) I have not had that problem for a number of years but I did once on my Nav III. It was in a very rural (and very flat) area of France. The device somehow lost it's 'position' and tried to send me off across fields on endless left turns. Cured by turning the Nav III off and on and a cunning human intuition that the routing could not be right.

It can also occur if you miss a waypoint. The device will, by default, keep trying to send you back to pass through it, as that is where you have told the machine you wanted to go. It's a 'good idea' up to a point as it may indeed be vital that you did pass through the point and annoying if you missed it. That may well involve a left turn, or more.
 
More confusion.

Tried downloading to my zumo to see what happened

"M4 initial" (84.9 miles 48:35) Zumo initially shows 55 miles 46 mins

Recalculate in the zumo with faster time and you get: 85 miles in 1 hour 11 mins

Before relcalculate and ask to preview the route in the zumo shows a direct bit of routing from near Chippenham to above Newbury.

Roughly it's in the are of route # 2 "Where zumo says it's going off road" which shows:

35.1 miles in 4 mins 20 secs this in off road calcualtions gives route #4 and gives:

32.5 miles or 2.6 less for the same waypoints and appearing to have the same routing calcs!

Route 3 is the direct off road calculations for route #1 and shows the initial zumo ideas are a bit off.

I'll post the mapsource routes when the site doesn't take 2 hours to display a thread :mad:
 
This glitch is having a bit of discussions on the zumo forums and it's one thought it's a variation or the same as the creating a route from via points not waypoints that's causing the problem.

The attached route is made using two waypoints and gives the same results. Route "M4 to M43" is what the route is after recalculating in the zumo to give a meaningful result as per the post above. If you want a laugh, recalculate that route in mapsource!
 

Attachments

An update

Tried using a mapreverser programme on the zumo forums, but due o certain issues couldn't get it to work. So used the remove programmes in control panel to remove mapsource and garmin bits, reinstalled Mapsource + CN EU2008, then CN 2009 update and finished on 6.13.4.

Downloaded 6.13., because I could, and no more supersonic speeds :)
 
Well done.

In my 'Cheesed off' thread you will see that I have got Garmin looking at the speed calc. problem. Will report back with any news. :beerjug:
 
She's replied:

Wapping said:
I have heard back from the United States Engineers who are aware of this issue in the MapSource software. I can confirm that a fix for this will be released shortly in the MapSource Software version 6.15.4. Unfortunately we do not have an estimated date for this release, but it is imminent.

Kind regards,

Leoni Tomkins
Product Support Associate Garmin (Europe) Ltd
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

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