talk about getting your pants taken down

fizzer

fizzer

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so i thought i would make the tentative call,i have as a part ex ,2023 r1250gsa trophy ,full luggage ,fsh ,7.5 thousand miles bike is paid for and is in mint condition.
well i would like a r1300gsa te ,triple black ,enduro wheels (alloys in other words) full luggage in black and the base plate for the top box
how much to change ,well sir that will be a few quid under ten grand to change
WHAT i says .how many are they going to sell.not many i think.
 
fizzer said:
so i thought i would make the tentative call,i have as a part ex ,2023 r1250gsa trophy ,full luggage ,fsh ,7.5 thousand miles bike is paid for and is in mint condition.
well i would like a r1300gsa te ,triple black ,enduro wheels (alloys in other words) full luggage in black and the base plate for the top box
how much to change ,well sir that will be a few quid under ten grand to change
WHAT i says .how many are they going to sell.not many i think.
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Which dealer was that then
 
If there's nothing with the 1250 why change it?
Had my 1200 RS eight years next week and it's plenty good enough.
 
My 1250 gave no bother and was brilliant for 22k miles in three years. Had to upgrade to 1300.

Delayed delivery due to relay issue.
Didn’t start the first time I took it out.
Broke down and remained in France for a month
Right hand switch gear replaced.
In for the latest starter relay recall next week.

Progress.

Barry
 
Byronavitch said:
Which dealer was that then
Click to expand...
i have sent you a private message mate,i wont name them outright on here as on the whole they have a very good name,and i am not blaming the dealer as such ,i am just pissed at market forces.
really i dont know what i was expecting,i should have been more savy.
 
fizzer said:
i have sent you a private message mate,i wont name them outright on here as on the whole they have a very good name,and i am not blaming the dealer as such ,i am just pissed at market forces.
really i dont know what i was expecting,i should have been more savy.
Click to expand...

That’s all it is I’m afraid, and a question of timing

The new model is not much more than the list price of the outgoing model which is still available new

So they’ll have to discount the remaining new 1250 stock to sell it which has a knock on effect to used trade-ins like yours
 
So they’re hoping to set up a deal where your machine is valued at £12K part ex?
And the same machines are asking around £16,000 plus on motorrad’s site. ☹️

I feel sure they’ll sell loads…. 😳
 
fizzer said:
so i thought i would make the tentative call,i have as a part ex ,2023 r1250gsa trophy ,full luggage ,fsh ,7.5 thousand miles bike is paid for and is in mint condition.
well i would like a r1300gsa te ,triple black ,enduro wheels (alloys in other words) full luggage in black and the base plate for the top box
how much to change ,well sir that will be a few quid under ten grand to change
WHAT i says .how many are they going to sell.not many i think.
Click to expand...
If you think of the VAT you paid - say 4K, depreciation say 2k per year, dealers profit 1k, + actual market pricing it soon adds up. Think of what a great trip that could buy with your 1250.
 
ChazzyB said:
KTM dumping stock at knockdown prices, BMW dealerships closing, dealers giving up franchises for premium brands... it'll be a bloodbath, I tells ya.
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Accounts filed at Companies House show my nearest BMW Motorrad dealer has net current assets down to -£109K for year ended 31st Dec 2023. 2022 was -£7.7K, 2021 was +£37K. Not a good time for premium brands.
 
ChazzyB said:
Accounts filed at Companies House show my nearest BMW Motorrad dealer has net current assets down to -£109K for year ended 31st Dec 2023. 2022 was -£7.7K, 2021 was +£37K. Not a good time for premium brands.
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Slippery slope
 
I noticed a dealer here has deals at 6.9 apr. When you delve deeper into the ad it’s on a pcp. JJH
 
G&T said:
If you think of the VAT you paid - say 4K, depreciation say 2k per year, dealers profit 1k, + actual market pricing it soon adds up. Think of what a great trip that could buy with your 1250.
Click to expand...
I'm no expert but I think the vat is still in the value of the bike when you sell it to a dealer. So you don't automatically lose £4k as in your example. The dealer can reclaim the vat element of the price he pays you for your bike, he then charges and pays 20% vat again on the price when it sells.
So your new bike isn't immediately worth 20% (vat) less after you've bought it.
As I say I'm not in the trade but someone else may know for certain.
As regards the original post it sounds quite possible for a dealer to want an extra £10k to upgrade from a 1250 to a 1300. Without going into precise figures but a year old 1250gs could sell for what ?? £14000?? & a new 1300gs can be £24k?? depending on spec. I imagine the GSA will be similar differences in the price of the old to new 1300 versions.
 
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pbbanks said:
I'm no expert but I think the vat is still in the value of the bike when you sell it to a dealer. So you don't automatically lose £4k as in your example. The dealer can reclaim the vat element of the price he pays you for your bike, he then charges and pays 20% vat again on the price when it sells.
So your new bike isn't immediately worth 20% (vat) less after you've bought it.
As I say I'm not in the trade but someone else may know for certain.
As regards the original post it sounds quite possible for a dealer to want an extra £10k to upgrade from a 1250 to a 1300. Without going into precise figures but a year old 1250gs could sell for what ?? £14000?? & a new 1300gs can be £24k?? depending on spec. I imagine the GSA will be similar differences in the price of the old to new 1300 versions.
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Punters are buying a bike, dealers are making a transaction. Two separate transactions if a trade-in is involved. I think it's easy to forget this but the punter often does. I remember a friend very upset with a dealer because the cost of change was so expensive but his trade in had low value.
 
pbbanks said:
I'm no expert but I think the vat is still in the value of the bike when you sell it to a dealer. So you don't automatically lose £4k as in your example. The dealer can reclaim the vat element of the price he pays you for your bike, he then charges and pays 20% vat again on the price when it sells.
So your new bike isn't immediately worth 20% (vat) less after you've bought it.
As I say I'm not in the trade but someone else may know for certain.
As regards the original post it sounds quite possible for a dealer to want an extra £10k to upgrade from a 1250 to a 1300. Without going into precise figures but a year old 1250gs could sell for what ?? £14000?? & a new 1300gs can be £24k?? depending on spec. I imagine the GSA will be similar differences in the price of the old to new 1300 versions.
Click to expand...
The dealer can’t claim VAT back from the price he pays you for your bike (unless it’s a VAT qualifying vehicle, ie. A VAT registered business purchased the bike and claimed the VAT back, therefore having to charge VAT on the sale price).

The element of VAT on a used vehicle is purely on the dealers markup. As customers we don’t get to see it as it is a VAT issue between the business and HMRC.

If a dealer buys a used bike for £10,000 and sells it for £11,000 he will have to pay VAT on the £1000 markup irrespective of how much it has cost him to prepare the bike for sale, servicing/tyres/etc.

So you can see that there is a hidden cost to the business there. Add to that all the other costs of operating a modern motorcycle dealership in its big expensive glass clad showroom fitted out with shiny floor tiles and a fully equipped workshop and you can see why so many can’t make it work.
It is a seasonal leisure industry.
Customers demand more and more and lots of them still believe that the coffee is free!!!

I hope that that explains a few things, I’m sure others can explain it better and things have certainly changed since I left the bike industry in 2013.
 
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pbbanks said:
I'm no expert but I think the vat is still in the value of the bike when you sell it to a dealer. So you don't automatically lose £4k as in your example. The dealer can reclaim the vat element of the price he pays you for your bike, he then charges and pays 20% vat again on the price when it sells.
Click to expand...

I think you have things a little mixed up. When a new bike is sold, the dealer collects VAT and this goes to the government. That VAT evaporates into general taxation never to be seen again.

When you sell the bike back to the dealer, maybe as part of a purchase in part exchange, the dealer does not pay VAT on the purchase. If the dealer gives you £10k for your bike and then sells it for £16k then they only pay VAT on the profit on that bike under the VAT margin scheme https://www.gov.uk/guidance/using-the-vat-margin-scheme-for-second-hand-vehicles
On a £6k profit, the dealer would pay £1000 in VAT.

[I see someone has made a similar reply as I typed this]
 
OnHellas said:
The dealer can’t claim VAT back from the price he pays you for your bike (unless it’s a VAT qualifying vehicle, ie. A VAT registered business purchased the bike and claimed the VAT back, therefore having to charge VAT on the sale price).
Click to expand...
Assume most BMW dealers are VAT registered so do claim vat back and then pay it again when sold.

Think the main point was that a new bike isn't automatically devalued by the amount of VAT paid on it if you part exchange it when it's,for example, a year old (which was the age of the bike on the original post). Still has a big loss but that's mainly the commercial price difference between an old model (1250) & the new model (1300).

From HMRC website --
"If you buy a vehicle to sell on, you can reclaim the VAT on your next VAT Return. You must be a VAT-registered motor dealer."
 
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