Tenere and Stelvio test rides

[Rasher]

As everyone knows I am not sure the GS is the bike for me I lined up a couple of demo's on "the competition", I already ruled out the Tiger 1050 and MTS before buying the GS.

Gonna keep the GS for this season, but after the Alps trip will start considering a replacement, although with a "light" biking year next year it may hang around fairly unused next season while I wait for new offerings (Namely Honda Cross Tourer) and the following to appear as low mileage used bargains.


Tenere

I started with the Tenere and the very first thing I noticed was it is tiny even compared to my standard GS, you sort if sit in it and if I had been put on the bike blindfolded I would have thought it was a Fazer or some other roadster.

The second most obvious thing is the power delivery, at just of idle it has huge dobs of torque, it felt like it could reverse the rotation of the earth from 2000rpm, absolutley monstrous grunt on a whif of throttle low down.

This took some getting used to, and also makes the bike feel a bit flat up top, where the GS has a bit of a powerband that kicks in at 5k and responds better to large throttle openings the Yamaha is completely the opposite, it probably is similalrly paced to a GS when caned but after that huge low down feels a bit flat.

You feel the torque in the pit of your stomach, but your brain does not get the sensation of speed, only watching the speedo numbers rise shows that it is actually PDQ. Once aclimatised it is a great engine, dead smooth (you can drop to 1500rpm in top and it holds smooth and steady) and can overtake cleanly from 50mph in top two-up (2.5k) and at a gues generally you can pull 1-2 gears higher compared to my 2008 bike. The lack of lurching when around town is nice too.

The handling felt pretty decent, the bike does not feel any heavier than my GS (Despite the fact it is about 50kg heavier) the CofG is obviously very low down and the bike behaves very well, the pegs are mega low though and I was soon bashing my feet on bends. Most surprising was it had virtually no front end dive and kept a level keel in a similar manner to the GS. It felt vague at the max angles I was prepared to take a demo bike - but upon my return I noticed death-wings are the OE fitment, and I never liked them on the GS, I am sure with better rubber it would be nicer - but I think a GS would leave it down a twisty road purely due to its superior ground clearance.

Low speed manouverability was amazing, a U-turn I needed to do in the road was a doddle compared to the tippy-toppy feel of the GS, with the Yam yet again completely hiding all that weight.

Overall the bike felt really nice, but a bit cramped on the legs for me (a problem I have on most bikes) apparently the seat was in the low position, wish I knew this before I setoff so I could compare with my GS (which I always run in the high position, it also benefits from an extra inch of foam)

I would also probably look at alternate shocks and maybe one with a ride height adjuster to sharpen it up a bit and help out with the ground clearance.

The asking price is the only negative, no way would I buy new and for me to cough up for one a large 1st year depreciation needs to occur.


Stelvio

This bike was surprisingly also much smaller than the GS (I parked both up alongside my bike post test and they were dwarfed by the stock GS)

This felt far more like a GS after the technically perfect, yet quite soul-less Yamaha. The engine rumbled and rocked the bike in a GS like fashion.

The bike felt a shade more roomy than the (low seat position Yamaha) and the seat felt very comfy, for both rider and passenger, feeling a good match for my Tony Archer jobbies on the GS, it felt like the bike would be the most comfy on a long run.

The engine felt like the best of both worlds being a shade better mannered than the GS and still having character. the more you revved it, or opened the throttle the faster it went in a very linear fashion, like the GS you know your picking up speed and get a buzz from going faster (The Yamaha just sort of goes fast in an un-noticed way). Probably not much in it compared to my GS, but it may have a shade more low down and does not have the step in the power my 08 has (even with de-cat headers and accel module it feels slightly inferior to the Stelvio)

I was expecting great handling, but this was a bit dissapointing, the forks dived a lot on the brakes and felt very soggy and underdamped, two-up the bike soon started to wallow. Depsite all this the bike put a GS style grin on my face and I did not care so much for its bad manners, if I bought one I would just pucker up for a quality shock and a rework of the forks.

When not bouncing up and down like Zebedee on acid the chasis felt great, loads of feedback from the front end and on slow tight bends (like roundabouts) it felt like you could lean it over forever.


Against the GS

Both bikes are much lower, but they lack that "presence" the GS has, but would both be ideal options for those who just cannot fit onto a GS.

I think I prefer the GS handling, but as I have spent £1200 on suspension, fitted roadsmarts and have had 4k miles to get used to it I susoect the differences would be minor if similar was done to the others, and suspect a sorted Stelvio would be awesome.

For equipment the Guzzi nails it, about £11k all kittted up, plenty left over to sort the suspension compared to a GS, the Yamaha is the poor relation with little in hte way of electro-gadgets on the cluster and a hefty price (makes stock GS look cheap)

For long distance hauling the GS also wins, for me it is still the roomiest and the luggage of the others looks a bit small, the Yamaha panniers are probably about the size of bigger (unexpanded) Vario, the Stelvio's look even smaller.

The head goes straight for the Yamaha, good at everything, IMO likely to be far more reliable than the GS and I reckon would just go for years on end with cheap servicing - valves clearances every 30k and simple oil / filter changes any idiot could do, and when you do need a delaer to fix it the labour rates are half BMW prices.

The heart goes for the Guzzi as it has a great quirky feel, after 5 mins the boss did not like it, by the time we returned she loved it (although she prefered the Yamaha engine by far as it is much smoother) I must admit the Guzzi would worry me a bit, will it be reliable, if it does go wrong how long will the parts take to arrive, and I certainly would not dream of loading the pannier with clothes without first putting them in plastic bags.

Neither bike is all that similar to the stock GS, and they certainly are not "competitors" to the GSA, both are great alternatives for me, and I would highly recomend to anyone wanting an "adventure bike" (still not sure what the term really means) and especially to those who lust after a GS but do not have the right inside leg measurement.

Maybe the Honda will arrive before D-Day for the GS arrives as although I liked both of these bikes neither ticks the allrounder box when factoring in luggage and comfort quite as well as the GS, within 18 months the GS will go, and I really do not want to run the reliability gauntlet of another GS, so unless the Honda appears and beats these two then I will have to buy.....

I can't decide, I want the Stelvio Chassis and gizmo's, with the Yamaha engine / reliability / dealer backup and the BMW luggage.

 

[overlander]

I guess we are talking about the 1200 Tenere the current new model from yamaha. Have not seen one in the flesh but like you, i think it looks small. Going from a 1200 Adventure would the new tenere feel small or is it physically about the same size but appears smaller due to better weight distribution?

 

[Rasher]

It is bloody tiny compared to a stock GS, I should have taken a photo off them parked side by side.

It is visibly much lower and noticeably slimmer - not just because of jutty out engine, the bike feels narrower between the legs which further helps those short in the leg.

The bars feel narrower too, overall it feels far more compact and in the real world feels no heavier, though I suspect if trying to push it uphill the extra 50kg would soon become evident!

It lacks the "presence" of my standard GS, I no longer had a commanding view over everything, after a GSA it would feel like a toy!

 

[Sgt Bilco]

Rasher, sensible question here. Have you investigated the service schedule and costs of the Super Ten? In my experience, Jap servicing is as expensive as everything else including our beloved BMW dealers

Interesting that the Super Ten has oodles of low down torque as that's just were it's needed. I haven't ridden one but looked at one in details at my local dealer and thought it was a bit plasticky and didn't look like it would stand the hammering that my GSA gets.

What was interesting was the salesman said that they had taken loads of GS's in p/x and it was a far better bike. They actually sold 2 from that dealer in the 6 months after it was launched.......cocks

 

[overlander]

To Be honest then they really have missed the GS markets, as although we all laugh about it the typical GS rider is large. In my case i am over 6ft 4 and 18 stone so i am very happy with the GS ADV but used to ride yamaha RD's when i was younger so have a soft spot for them.

 

[Neil W]

I looked long and hard at the above but both were worse for pillion room and the Stelvio felt cramped whilst the Yams pillion pegs were set too high, plus the NTX model I looked at had SW Motech TRAX luggage which was not as well made as the BMW Touratech stuff and according to the German press leaks badly.

The Yamahas price, fuel tank size and luggage capacity are a joke if it is supposed to be a 1200GSA rival.

The Stelvio especially the NTX is the bike that Guzzi should have brought out 6 years ago and it would have competed against the R1150 GS as they are very similar in character. I was shocked that the 600 mile serice for the Guzzi is a 5 hour job and it looked as if dealer servicing for the first 2 years would have been much more expensive than the BM !!!!

In the end I bought a 1200 GSA and sold my 1150 (with large tank uprated suspension etc) and after 3000 miles on the continent in the last 3 weeks I'm still not sure that I did the right thing

 

[Neil W]

Should also note that whilst in the Alps in 2 weeks I saw shed loads of the older 1100 GS, 1150GS and Adventures and 1200 Gs models plus loads of 800's but very few 1200 Adventures , none of the new model Stelvios and that included a few days in the South Tyrol and only 2 Super Teneres, one in Munich and the other in Austria and speaking to its owner he wasn't intending to keep it.

 

[Rasher]

Rasher, sensible question here. Have you investigated the service schedule and costs of the Super Ten? In my experience, Jap servicing is as expensive as everything else including our beloved BMW dealers

Not in detail, but for the most part I suspect once out of warranty it is oil and filter most of the time and I am happy to do that myself and just take it back for the 30k shim job.

The labour is far cheaper, I can get it done for as little £60 per hour from main dealer and £48 from a truted independant I know (who won't do BMW's) compared to £90+ an hour at BMW dealers it won't work out more expensive and any non standard servicing should be cheaper as both parts and labour are less.

Every dealer seems to claim to have taken in hundreds of what your riding against whatever it is your looking at


The Guzzi luggage did not look great, too small and a bit flimsy, if I went for one I may be tempted to go down the Trekker route. I have to admit the BMW luggage is pretty good and I doubt I will find anything to better it regardless of the bike.

 

[BBB61]

The labour is far cheaper, I can get it done for as little £60 per hour from main dealer and £48 from a truted independant I know (who won't do BMW's) compared to £90+ an hour at BMW dealers it won't work out more expensive and any non standard servicing should be cheaper as both parts and labour are less.

Rasher,

Do you actually check your facts before you trot out your claims? I suspect not. If you had you would have found the following labour rates:-

Cotswold BMW £69 (minimum 20% reduction for bikes over 3 years old)

Balderstons BMW £70 (£50 for bikes registered before January 2005)

Cannon BMW £70

Wollaston BMW £76

Park Lane BMW £98

Very trusted BMW independent (BMW master technician) £40

So, that's one dealer out of five who charge more than £90 per hour (and not a surprise given Park Lanes location in central London).

I could ring a few more dealers to see if more do charge above that but I think ringing five and asking is a reasonable cross section.

 

[Beemerman59]

As for spares pricing, just a quick look on t'internet from independant suppliers shows:

Air filter:

Stelvio £11.23
R1200GS £11.52

Oil filter

Stelvio £8.75
R1200GS £8.78

Service kit (inc plugs):

Stelvio £48.96
R1200GS £47.20

OK, these are from independants not dealers, but I doubt there's a real difference either way - we are talking pennies. Also I have used pre-2010 bike prices for the GS and I know the twin cam is a bit more expensive, but really, in the overall scheme of owning these bikes, the cost differential of spares can be discounted in my opinion.

 

[BBB61]

Plugs for the 2010 GS/RT's are £10 each And they have only just been released on the general market this year by NGK.

 

[Rasher]

Rasher,

Do you actually check your facts before you trot out your claims? I suspect not.

No, I just post any old bollox and someone else checks them for me, thanks very much

Th eproblem with hourly rates is normally your charged for a service, my upcoming one requires oil for gearbox and engine, plus air and oil filters - about £60?

The service is £285, so £225 labour for about 2 hours work, much higher than the quoted hourly rate, one dealer quoted £400 for the same service which makes for about £170 an hour, although they also claim a much lower labour rate.

Lowest quote I had was for £225 which would actually make for a genuine £82.50 an hour, still quite pricey.

At £90 an hour a 2 hour service with £60 of parts should be no more than £240, yet 2 out of 3 dealers quoted way above this.

Before changing bike I will get more accurate costs - and in writing this time as my local BMW dealer quoted far lower prices whilst I was looking at bikes.

 

[John Armstrong]

Prices of spark plugs and labour rates helping decide what bike to buy

 

[Beemerman59]

Where do you get the 2 hours from though? I can't do it anywhere near that time.

 

[miked]

Th eproblem with hourly rates is normally your charged for a service

OK, I can't take it anymore...


"you are" = you're, not your!!!


you are charged, not bloody "your"...

 

[Gizmo*]

On the Norge I owned which was the 2V engine that should be cheaper to service it actually cost more than the equivalent annual/6000 mile service on a 999 Ducati! - both main dealer and within 3 miles of each other. GS costs even less at a main dealer but on my new bike I haggled a deal with them doing its first service FOC, I tend to find dealers will move on that to get a sale especially if you agree to take it in in quiet months. factor one free service in and its drops the average for the next services.... ultimately its labour, if workshop is quiet technicians not busy they still need paying they might as well be working and if it gets a new bike sale its worth the dealer doing FOC

 

[BBB61]

No, I just post any old bollox and someone else checks them for me, thanks very much

Maybe if you checked them yourself first you wouldn't look so stupid

Th eproblem with hourly rates is normally your charged for a service, my upcoming one requires oil for gearbox and engine, plus air and oil filters - about £60?

The service is £285, so £225 labour for about 2 hours work, much higher than the quoted hourly rate, one dealer quoted £400 for the same service which makes for about £170 an hour, although they also claim a much lower labour rate.

You really are clueless.

£285 of which £43 will be VAT.Take off the VAT and it brings it down to £237. If the dealer is using the recommended Castrol Power 1 oil then that is about £50 for 4 litres (without VAT). Now down to £187. Air filter is £14 (before VAT), which brings it down to £173. Oil filter is £8.50, so that leaves £164.50. A litre of gearbox oil is probably £8.50, so after subtracting all the parts costs and VAT from the all in total of £285 you are left with a labour element of £156. Now, assuming it is two hours that is £78 per hour, but I believe the actual labour for this service is 2.25 hours. That works out as £69.33 per hour for labour.

Lowest quote I had was for £225 which would actually make for a genuine £82.50 an hour, still quite pricey.

Using the same calculations as above the labour rate for the £225 service is just over £50.

At £90 an hour a 2 hour service with £60 of parts should be no more than £240, yet 2 out of 3 dealers quoted way above this.

As we have shown above it is more like £90 for all the parts and oils before VAT is added, assuming the use of Castrol Power 1 10w/50, which is the oil recommended by BMW.

Before changing bike I will get more accurate costs - and in writing this time as my local BMW dealer quoted far lower prices whilst I was looking at bikes.

Maybe you should get some accurate figures before you start posting on internet forums.

 

[cookie]

In fairness to rasher, I must ask how knocking the VAT off is relevant?

 

[BBB61]

It's just breaking down the relevent sections that make up the total cost of the service. All the dealers I have used over the years quote their labour rate without including the VAT, which is why I have done it that way. I suspect in his figures he has done it that way as well.

 

[(RIP) Kaister]

so you're saying BMW dealers are 20-25% more than yam dealers ?