TUNING.. wideband power Commander vs hill top dyno remap vs johns chip

Flipfly said:
Oh no it's not!

You might think it is, but after 100 the hornet pisses off. Up to a ton it is pretty close, but the 1150 is nowhere near the capabilities of a half average modern jap bike (or even one of similar vintage).

As for a smoother ride, the PC has made it a bit smoother, but again, a jap four is smooth like a hairdrier, the vibration is character, why would you want to lose that?
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I ride with one. Drag from the lights he can't keep up. Sure over 100 he would but if I wanted to be going silly speeds I wouldn't of bought a gs ..that said I'm always trying to make it faster.

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I've got a couple of questions. I'm sure some of you will be able to answer them easily...

1. Why is it BMW would not have already found the optimum mapping?
2. Aren't all these mods described above just different flavours of enriching the AFR?

I understand the concepts quite easily but the nitty gritty and detail is something I know little about! Interested to hear the answers :)
 
Good questions, below are some answers.

Slipperyeel said:
I've got a couple of questions. I'm sure some of you will be able to answer them easily...

1. Why is it BMW would not have already found the optimum mapping? There are two steps to developing the fuel maps. The first is to determine the volumetric efficiency (VE), which is how much air enters the cylinder. The second step is to decide the target AFR for each cell, which then determines the on-time value in the cell. Even though BMW did an excellent job of finding the VE, the AFR targets are set by the needs of the catalytic converter, hence the lean, anemic fueling.
2. Aren't all these mods described above just different flavours of enriching the AFR? Yes, to a degree you're right. But the PC breaks the open loop to add fuel, which disables the best part of closed loop fueling. Chip changing keeps closed loop but can't richen much of the map. Lambad shifting changes exhaust O2 reading which richen the whole fuel table.

I understand the concepts quite easily but the nitty gritty and detail is something I know little about! Interested to hear the answers :)
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Just a little further explanation, the O2 sensor operates like a thermostat in your home. When the air in your home is colder than the set point it calls for heat, when the air is hotter than the set point it stops calling for heat until the air cools down.

The Motronic (or BMSK) uses the O2 sensor in a way that makes it an oxygen-stat or better, a lambda-stat. When it senses more O2 than its setpoint--which is lambda=1 or 14.7:1 for narrowband sensors--it adds fuel. Then when it senses less O2 than the setpoint, the Motronic reduces fuel. In closed loop the Motronic constantly adds and subtracts a little fuel. It changes from rich to lean about every second or so.

By using an Innovate LC-2 and Wideband sensor or AF-XIED and narrowband sensor, you are able to change the lambda-stat from 1.00 to something richer, say 0.94 which is 6% richer. The Motronic then just does its thing, meeting the lambda-stat setting and updating the long term trim values that are applied to all fueling. Eventually the long term multiplicative trim reaches 1.06 and the whole fuel table is 6% richer.
 
Ive got a TFI on mine and I am pleased with that. I had it set up on the dyno by TTS at Silverstone who have a good knowledge of the product. I picked mine up from a forum member.
I'm tempted with John's chip but get confused about all the chat of certain modes reverting. I'd be happy to pay for a Hillside apart from they are chuffin miles from where we live.
 
Well, it's 2 weeks since John was going to send a chip to me so I am booking my R1100RS into Hilltop in the new year.
 
Roger. Thanks for the explanations. So BMW have built the set-up in a way to satisfy emissions regs, which isn't quite the same as setting up for the best ride experience. Is that right?

Reading your comments about the options am I right to think changing the o2/lambda sensor is the better?

Last question (I think!), what is it that a dyno centre, hilltop for example, doing exactly? Are they effectively re-writing the fueling table. I'm not clear on this option


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Slipperyeel said:
Roger. Thanks for the explanations. So BMW have built the set-up in a way to satisfy emissions regs, which isn't quite the same as setting up for the best ride experience. Is that right?

Reading your comments about the options am I right to think changing the o2/lambda sensor is the better?

Last question (I think!), what is it that a dyno centre, hilltop for example, doing exactly? Are they effectively re-writing the fueling table. I'm not clear on this option


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SE, Yes that's right. Although BMW measured the VE just right, the engine had to meet the emissions regs but the boxer engine runs better nearer Best Power Mixture.

From a lot of testing which I've done over the last 4 years, and other riders have confirmed, (read about it here and here) the Oilheads, Hexheads and Camheads all run better with several percent more fuel. Lambda=1 satisfies the catalytic converter but, for example, lambda=0.94 moves the mixture closer to Best Power Mixture.

I think lambda shifting is the better solution because it leaves the entire fueling system intact, meaning that Closed Loop fueling remains in place since the O2 sensor remains connected. Although rewriting the chip might seem better, if Closed Loop is retained, most riding is still at lambda=1 in Closed Loop.

Regarding Hilltop, I haven't seen a description from them of what they do on the R1100 and R1150. To change fueling you have to change the chip in the Motronic. The question then is what about Closed Loop, does Hilltop somehow disable it? Many riders have been satisfied by Hilltop and also by a "John's Chip", but I've not seen riding AFR data on either. John recently confirmed that on Closed Loop R1100 and all R1150, the bike runs at lambda=1 in Closed Loop, except at very wide throttle angles.
 
Roger 04 RT said:
SE, Yes that's right. Although BMW measured the VE just right, the engine had to meet the emissions regs but the boxer engine runs better nearer Best Power Mixture.

From a lot of testing which I've done over the last 4 years, and other riders have confirmed, (read about it here and here) the Oilheads, Hexheads and Camheads all run better with several percent more fuel. Lambda=1 satisfies the catalytic converter but, for example, lambda=0.94 moves the mixture closer to Best Power Mixture.

I think lambda shifting is the better solution because it leaves the entire fueling system intact, meaning that Closed Loop fueling remains in place since the O2 sensor remains connected. Although rewriting the chip might seem better, if Closed Loop is retained, most riding is still at lambda=1 in Closed Loop.

Regarding Hilltop, I haven't seen a description from them of what they do on the R1100 and R1150. To change fueling you have to change the chip in the Motronic. The question then is what about Closed Loop, does Hilltop somehow disable it? Many riders have been satisfied by Hilltop and also by a "John's Chip", but I've not seen riding AFR data on either. John recently confirmed that on Closed Loop R1100 and all R1150, the bike runs at lambda=1 in Closed Loop, except at very wide throttle angles.
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i have a gs 911 how can i record the afr data from jhons chip do i need my laptop connected it is the one with Bluetooth or will my phone record the live data
 
Roger 04 RT said:
SE, Yes that's right. Although BMW measured the VE just right, the engine had to meet the emissions regs but the boxer engine runs better nearer Best Power Mixture.

From a lot of testing which I've done over the last 4 years, and other riders have confirmed, (read about it here and here) the Oilheads, Hexheads and Camheads all run better with several percent more fuel. Lambda=1 satisfies the catalytic converter but, for example, lambda=0.94 moves the mixture closer to Best Power Mixture.

I think lambda shifting is the better solution because it leaves the entire fueling system intact, meaning that Closed Loop fueling remains in place since the O2 sensor remains connected. Although rewriting the chip might seem better, if Closed Loop is retained, most riding is still at lambda=1 in Closed Loop.

Regarding Hilltop, I haven't seen a description from them of what they do on the R1100 and R1150. To change fueling you have to change the chip in the Motronic. The question then is what about Closed Loop, does Hilltop somehow disable it? Many riders have been satisfied by Hilltop and also by a "John's Chip", but I've not seen riding AFR data on either. John recently confirmed that on Closed Loop R1100 and all R1150, the bike runs at lambda=1 in Closed Loop, except at very wide throttle angles.
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Roger. Thanks again for all the detail. I think my last question is about fuel consumption. I'm quite impressed with what I get out of a full tank (adv tank) fully loaded on a long run (the 1150 GS isn't exactly very aerodynamic!). I'd guess I'm getting around 350 miles per tank. Does opting for 'best power mixture' lower the mpg? Around town I'm lucky to get 250 miles per tank full!



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Slipperyeel said:
Roger. Thanks again for all the detail. I think my last question is about fuel consumption. I'm quite impressed with what I get out of a full tank (adv tank) fully loaded on a long run (the 1150 GS isn't exactly very aerodynamic!). I'd guess I'm getting around 350 miles per tank. Does opting for 'best power mixture' lower the mpg? Around town I'm lucky to get 250 miles per tank full!



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With lambda-shifting we don't try to get to best power mixture which is in the range of 12.5-13:1, we just go rich enough to get better performance. Below 55-60 miles per hour at 6% enrichment, most riders see about the same mileage (after they stop playing with the stronger roll-on performance) because they are upshifting (naturally) sooner and running one higher gear often. Above 65 mph in sixth gear about half the extra fuel creates power so you see about a 3% increase in fuel consumption if you add 6% to the fuel, so MPG might drop 1.5 mpg if you get 50 on the highway. Interestingly, the idle speed usually increases a hundred RPM (brought down with the BBSs) and the exhaust note is throatier.
 
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