Union Jacks...?

[AberdeenAngus]

at the risk of being a PITA, its a Union Flag.
Its only a Union Jack when flown from a jack staff.

Jacks


Jacks are additional national flags flown by warships (and certain other vessels) at the head of the ship. These are usually flown while not underway and when the ship is dressed on special occasions. Jacks in the Royal Navy must be run up when the first line is ashore when coming alongside.

In Britain's Royal Navy, the Union Flag at sea serves both as a naval jack and as the rank flag of an Admiral of the Fleet. It is illegal for a merchant ship or yacht to fly the Union Flag: a civilian jack (sometimes known as the pilot jack as it was formerly used to request a pilot) exists, and consists of the Union Flag with a white border. The St George's Cross flown from the jack staff is known as the Dunkirk jack, and is customarily flown by ships and boats which took part in the Dunkirk evacuation operation in 1940. The flying of the St George's Cross elsewhere on a civilian ship is illegal, as it is the rank flag of a full Admiral.

Agree that's the origin of the term but, if you check the Oxford English Dictionary you will see....

Union Jack
(also Union flag)
• noun; the national flag of the United Kingdom.

So the original post was perfectly correct in his usage of the term.

Na na na na na !

 

[bowser]

Just because something is so often repeated that it comes into common usage and thus into the English language and into the dictionary does not make it right or correct. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and I am perfectly entitled to the correct one.

so there ya bo sucks !!!!! ;-)

Its good to see the level of intellectual dialogue can be maintained at the highest level.

Oh and what are you doing reading an "English" dictionary, isnt that some kind of imprisonable offence, in your neck of the woods ?

 

[AberdeenAngus]

Just because something is so often repeated that it comes into common usage and thus into the English language and into the dictionary does not make it right or correct.

Interesting point of view.

 

[ricdunn]

Don't know why I'm wading back into this one, but seems everyone is right, partly at least... slightly paraphrased from the-brit.com

Which of "Union Jack" and "Union Flag" is the correct name? The Flag Institute answers as follows:

It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag".

However, the Royal Navy disagrees:

The national flag of the United Kingdom is worn as a Jack at the bow by all HM ships in commission when alongside or when 'dressed overall'. This is the only occasion when it is correctly called the Union Jack, although it is generally known by this name through common usage. It is also flown during Courts Martial and is the Distinguishing Flag of an Admiral of the Fleet.

When enquires were made of the Royal Navy about this apparent disagreement, asking which of the Flag Institute and the Royal Navy is right? The Naval Historic Branch directly, of 3-5 Great Scotland Yard London SW1A 2HW, answered as follows:

Both and neither. A jack is a sea flag, a small flag, generally rather square in its proportions, flown from a flagstaff rigged on the bowsprit or stem of the vessel. The earliest known reference to a 'jack' of such a type occurs in 1633, the first reference to the Union (rather than the 'Britain' or 'British' flag) dating from 1625 - the Union Flag and the naval jack are much the same age. The jack was initially simply a particular instance of the Union Flag, but as the distinctive flag of warships it quickly became an exceptionally well-known instance. Technically, all Union Jacks are Union Flags, but not vice versa. It is a fine point and one that was much argued over, but it is beyond question that the habit of treating the two terms as interchangeable developed early, and it would not be difficult to multiply instances of individuals who undoubtedly did understand the distinction nevertheless following common usage and using the term Union Jack when Union Flag is clearly meant.

The RN website is quite right in that the Union Jack flown in the bows of commissioned ships is the only one which really is a jack (unless you count the white-bordered pilot jack), but not quite so on that being the only occasion when it is 'correctly' so called - because the Flag Institute is right that the use of Union Jack to mean any Union Flag has been sanctioned both by the Admiralty and by Parliament. Equally, it is questionable to suggest that the distinction between Union Jack and Union Flag is of particularly recent origin - the Union Flag was also employed as a command flag, and there was (and is!) a necessary differentiation to be made, so it is possible that both websites could have chosen their words better, but it would also be difficult to avoid questions like this arising without going into quite inordinate detail.



Anyway... I remembered a guy who has done me a great job on vinyl graphics in the past and he's knocking a couple up... So I'll post a pic up when done.

 

[Sniper1]

Didn't realise you were that thorough in digging stuff out concerning this one, but well done.

 

[STUBBS]

Please elaborate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Flag#Status

No law has been passed making the Union Flag the national flag of the United Kingdom: it has become one through precedent. Its first recorded recognition as a national flag came in 1908, when it was stated in Parliament that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag". A more categorical statement was made by the Home Secretary, Sir John Gilmour, in 1933 when he stated that "the Union Jack is the National Flag". But it is still officially a flag of the monarch, rather than the country.[9]

I'll elaborate for him.....you see underneath the name STUBBS it says "undead?"
That means from the neck down.

alive from the neck up

 

[TonyJ]

Union

Try this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk:80/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360067767735

 

[ricdunn]

Attempt number 1...

OK, here's the first crack at these... still got the application tape over the layered up reflective vinyl so it doesn't show the true reflectivity yet, but gives an idea...

May have a crack with some class 2 reflective (as per recovery vehicles etc), but think these will do me for now! Will put a proper pic up once they're on the panniers if anyone's interested.

 

[chad]

OK, here's the first crack at these... still got the application tape over the layered up reflective vinyl so it doesn't show the true reflectivity yet, but gives an idea...

May have a crack with some class 2 reflective (as per recovery vehicles etc), but think these will do me for now! Will put a proper pic up once they're on the panniers if anyone's interested.

cool:cool

 

[Phil Reynolds]

Watched an old programme of Minder last night on the Dave channel, and Arthur was being very patriotic by flying the home flag on his car lot with the slogan on it stating 'British is best'.

The local council came along and told him to remove it as he was breaking the law by flying the british flag with a slogan on it. Arthur commented 'can't an englishman fly the Union Jack?' and the respnse was - 'it is not a Union Jack - it is the Union Flag'.

I never knew this. I have learnt something.

 

[digga]

It is an 'offence' to fly it upside down as well apparently !

 

[LEGOscum]

It's not illegal if you are doing it for the right reason - flying the national flag, any national flag, upside down is considered a marker of distress (though 99% of Brits wouldn't know which way was up).

As an FYI, neither Wales, England, Ulster or Scotland are countries. They are all kingdoms (or in the case of Wales, a principality) and all form part of United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which is the country that the native Britons, Welsh, northern Irish and Scots live in.

As a further sign on how anal I am on this subject, the British Isles is the archipelago that consists of Great Britain (which is the main island), Ireland plus six thousand smaller islands.

And as a token effort to staying on topic: thanks for the links to the hi-vis decals. I intend to stick mine to a large magnetic sheet and cut them out so that they are removeable, should I go to anywhere that doesn't like my nationality. Though riding an expensive German bike with foreign plates will probably make me a target anyway.

 

[ricdunn]

I got 'em made up by a mate of mine at www.skewer.co.uk for the record

 

[Sniper1]

cool:cool

Look ok to me, get some Cross of St George ones made as well

 

[Richie3264]

It's not illegal if you are doing it for the right reason - flying the national flag, any national flag, upside down is considered a marker of distress (though 99% of Brits wouldn't know which way was up).

IIRC the correct way is to have a thicker white diagonal band on the top of the left upper diagonal and if turned upside down the diagonal arm in the same position would have a thin band of white on the top of the arm showing as you said as a distress marker/signal.

I've just read that to myself and totally confused myself, but i think its about right ish kinda thingy wotsit

 

[LEGOscum]

CORRECT:

INCORRECT:

I found a write-up here:

http://www.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/geography/unionjack7.html

 

[AberdeenAngus]

It is an 'offence' to fly it upside down as well apparently !

Which law would that be then ?

 

[STUBBS]

the law of gravity

 

[London Mole]

GB & colours

I bought this one on eBya, it's not reflective but it's a kind of thick round plastic shape so the light bounces off it...