Deleted account Cooperman
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Long winded way of saying yes, it's a risk, but one your self-judgement has decided is acceptable.
Warning Riding in France "priority to the right"
- Thread starter Andy63
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Long winded way of saying yes, it's a risk, but one your self-judgement has decided is acceptable.
The Grey One
Registered user
No if you read what I actually wrote the risk is avoided by simply not engaging in conversation with a passenger in any situation that requires full concentration.
John
Deleted account Cooperman
Registered user
Which is exactly the same driver decision for a handsfree telephone conversation.
In some states in the US, it's illegal to use the phone but legal to text when driving
Bit of a loophole which is being sorted out thank goodness although using the phone is commonplace.The Grey One
Registered user
I disagree, as I pointed out before any telephone conversation demands more concentration than a face to face one. This is well researched, most studies show that around 70% of communication is non verbal. This means that we have to put more effort into a telephone call and hence are more distracted. The person at the other end has no idea as to traffic conditions so will speak without any regard to what the driver is dealing with at that moment. For me it is a bit like being in a room with a TV on, its very hard to ignore when someone is talking to you on a phone. Passengers generally know when to shut up although I have had a few who needed to be told!
It looks to me as if you are trying to defend the use of phones in cars by saying it is the same as talking to passengers. It most certainly is not for the reasons outlined abov. My point is there is no need for such distractions, non of us are so important that we can't be out of contact whilst actually driving. For my own part I often do not talk at all whilst driving and if I do conversations remain on a superficial level-comments about the weather etc. Just as the phone can wait until I stop then so can more interesting topics of discussion.
John
Our Gee
Registered user
Spot on John, although I don't think you are going to convince him.
I never hook my phone into the bike comms system, I sometimes take or make a BT call in the car, especially when stuck in solid traffic.
On the bike I just want to enjoy my ride and do not see phone calls as an essential, if commuting further by bike I may be more tempted, but when at home I think any call can wait until I get home or stop for fuel fill / bladder empty.
On tour anyone calling me will be lucky to get much more than a "I am on Holiday" text when I reach my next hotel.
On the bike I just want to enjoy my ride and do not see phone calls as an essential, if commuting further by bike I may be more tempted, but when at home I think any call can wait until I get home or stop for fuel fill / bladder empty.
On tour anyone calling me will be lucky to get much more than a "I am on Holiday" text when I reach my next hotel.
Deleted account Cooperman
Registered user
This was your strong comment on people using hands free mobile phones, which you have backed up with your choice not to converse with vehicle passengers when driving. Admirable and respected
Likewise what's your comment on people using sat navs and separately driving/riding tired?
The Grey One
Registered user
This was your strong comment on people using hands free mobile phones, which you have backed up with your choice not to converse with vehicle passengers when driving. Admirable and respected
Likewise what's your comment on people using sat navs and separately driving/riding tired?
Sometimes I'm more of a grumpy old git than others! but if you read the post again you will see I am referring to those who drive off and the immediately pick up the phone rather than users of hands free kit.
I've used Sat Navs both in the car and on the bike since 2003. As long as you don't try to play with them on the move then I don't find them a distraction, having said that I am not sure about those people who don't use the sound. Don't you have to concentrate on the screen to see where you are supposed to go? I accept the voice prompts as the price for knowing where I am going so that I can concentrate on the traffic.
What I do find is becoming more widespread is the positioning of said Sat Nav in the drivers view of the road, likewise phones are often mounted this way too. I am extra wary of such drivers as I think it is a good indication of their priorities. The Sat Nav or phone is obviously more important than a clear view of the road!
I have had such people tell me it's OK because they can see around the devices. Unless they can show that one of the fundamental laws of physics, namely light travels in straight lines, does not apply to them I continue to think they are wrong. What is actually happening is that their brain is filling in the gaps for them, fooling them into thinking they can somehow see around an object. The brain in effect makes it up as you go along. This is the effect that has been shown to happen when people turn to scan for oncoming traffic for instance when waiting to emerge from a side road. We think we see a continuous view like a film as we turn our heads but what actually happens is that, just like a film, the brain stitches single frames together to make a movie. Rather like flicking the pages of one of those animated cartoon books I remember from my childhood. This is one reason why bikes can be difficult to see. Telling people to look out for bikes is not enough we need to educate people as to just how we see especially about how much of what we think we see is actually the result of guesswork carried out inside our own heads.
Since you ask my take on driving/riding tired (by which I take it you mean tired to the point that your concentration and reactions are suffering) is that it is not big or clever. It certainly is not a sign of being a "real" biker whatever that might mean. To me all it shows is that you are prepared to take risks with other people lives rather than stop for a rest. As with many such things if you have your own private roads go ahead, do anything you like, ride for 24 hours non stop on a bike that has had no maintenance in years. But if you use public roads you have a responsibility to the rest of us to not add unnecessarily to the dangers of using such roads.
In case some of you are thinking he is not just a grumpy old git he is also being superior let me add this. I have in the past used a hand held mobile whilst driving I have also driven so far in a day that I finished the last hour of the trip in a trace like state. An incident on the M40 about 15 years ago convinced me to put my phone away whilst driving. The traffic if front braked, I saw it late because I was on the phone and had to brake very hard to avoid a collision. In the car with me were 3 very good friends. All four of us had wives or partners and families and thinking of those families made me realise that I had risked destroying their lives for the sake of that phone call. Since that day I ignore the phone whilst driving, I do leave it on so that I know someone was trying to get through. I will then either stop as soon as possible or wait until the end of the journey. No phone call is, for me, worth the risks involved in taking a call on the move.
John
I don't use the sound.
There again, I never heard my map or vague hand written instructions, blured by water through the near enough opaque map case on my tankbag (which itself was held on by frayed bungycords) talking to me either.
Lots of bods wire themselves for phones, music, bike-to-bike and for all I know semaphore and thought transfer via the ether, many of them on these very pages. They probably all moan about bods in cars 'fiddling with things', sucking their teeth and shaking their heads at how outrageous it all is.... As it requires 100% concentration to drive something with a wheel at each corner, as opposed to just two wheels, which requires no concentration at all, natch.
There again, I never heard my map or vague hand written instructions, blured by water through the near enough opaque map case on my tankbag (which itself was held on by frayed bungycords) talking to me either.
Lots of bods wire themselves for phones, music, bike-to-bike and for all I know semaphore and thought transfer via the ether, many of them on these very pages. They probably all moan about bods in cars 'fiddling with things', sucking their teeth and shaking their heads at how outrageous it all is.... As it requires 100% concentration to drive something with a wheel at each corner, as opposed to just two wheels, which requires no concentration at all, natch.
Our Gee
Registered user
All very well put John. You didn't need to include your last paragraph but doing so shows that you are genuine in your beliefs and have indeed experienced first hand the possible tragic consequences of phones in cars. Having said that you will no doubt realise that there are countless drivers out there who no matter how well you explain the foolishness, how convincing the statistics are, and how many international reports and studies show driving and using a phone, hands free or not is dangerous, they will still convince themselves that they are quite capable of driving and phoning until they kill someone. Even then they will probably try to blame some poor cyclist, pedestrian or the other driver.
Deleted account Cooperman
Registered user
What's your view on sat nav's?
As driving is based upon vision, shouldn't a device that requires you to take your eyes off the road rank as a higher risk than an audio device (not forgetting a sat nav can be both audio and visual)
Answer to question below:
What's your view on sat nav's?
As driving is based upon vision, shouldn't a device that requires you to take your eyes off the road rank as a higher risk than an audio device (not forgetting a sat nav can be both audio and visual)
This discussion seems to have descended into a bit of "point scoring". Both protagonists make valid points and I don't see that their views are a million miles apart: it is all about how much the driver/rider cuclist is distracted from his duty to be in control of the vehicle and aware of the traffic and road conditions.
Take the discussion to the absurd and you could argue that any form of gauge that requires the driver to take his eyes off the road is a danger (e.g speedos, fuel gauges....). Equally, we have all witnessed cretins with their mobile phones clamped with one hand against the rim of the steering wheel as they tap out an SMS as they drive. Or a driver munching away on a sandwich as they drive. Or drinking a Starbucks. All a matter of degree. Less opportunities on a motorbike, as we clamp our heads in a helmet. But, that said, one might argue that a rider needs to be more attentive as a m'bike is inherently more unstable and dangerous an environment than a car.
The original point of this thread was that driving regulations etc etc do vary, sometimes dramatically, from country to country: be in proritee a droite or the continental attitudes to absolute priority to pedestrians and cyclists. This latter point is being lost in the ping-pong posts
The Grey One
Registered user
Point taken, I guess you can add argumentative bastard to my grumpy old git title.
John
Our Gee
Registered user
What's your view on sat nav's?
As driving is based upon vision, shouldn't a device that requires you to take your eyes off the road rank as a higher risk than an audio device (not forgetting a sat nav can be both audio and visual)
I don't really have a view on Sat Navs as I have never used one and can't really see any reason why I should consider one in the future. If I where a delivery / multi drop driver then I can see just how valuable a tool they could be and I then would consider one. I do have a friend who has one in his car and has it on all the time, even when driving the 40 miles to his son's house, a journey he must have done hundreds of times. He says he like listening to the lady and god forbid, watching the little car wind it's way across the screen !!. I can drive / ride the 1000 miles or so from my house to the Drome in the South of France using the navigation system that I was born with. The odd time when there has been a Detour I have enjoyed pulling into a layby, getting the map out and finding a way to rejoin my route.
Just to get back to the use of phones and driving for a mo. How many time has one been behind a HGV and watched as his nearside wheels rattle over the roadside rumble strips, sway onto the hard shoulder sending clouds of dust and debris over following vehicles. A swift overtakes usually sees the driver texting his girlfriend or carrying out some other vital task on his phone that positively can't wait until his next stop.
Very, very dangerous practice.
Deleted account Cooperman
Registered user
Completely agreed on texting and hand helds. My mate got done driving a van with a hand held. He now cannot get insurance via on-line quotes as his penalty equates to driving without due care. He has to directly contact the insurance companies and it costs him a reasonable extra in premium.
It will be interesting having this discussion in 10 years time on sat navs. But then we will all be wearing google glasses, or having brain chip implants
mcinlb
Registered user
Re sat navs, HUD units are sure to be the next step in development , I believe that some 'expensive' cars already have dash info in HUD............
Deleted account Cooperman
Registered user
There are also HUD systems for bike helmets.
